I was refering exclusively on the Namers, which can be killed by late 105mm sabots and early 125mm sabots, and also very slow.
Air its a completely aside world, no point in compare. Helis have more ammo (infinite), have more view of the battlefield and so release 16 FnF munitions in a short time, more difficult to kill (yes a sabot hitting a tank its faster than a vt1 reaching a heli 5km away), etc.
In that case, I’m completely with you, except for the idea of them being 9.7.
From what I’ve heard the Namer really is in an extremely sad state. If it remains as bad as it currently is I could see it maybe going down to 10.0, but I believe 10.3 with a couple buffs would be a better fit.
The Tsrikhon obviously should be one or two steps higher, due to the APS.
But as I’ve tried to say, there are more factors to keep in mind than just the FnF vs SACLOS arguement, even if you disagree with me there
Well, at least we can agree there.
What makes this overall more frustrating is how anti aircraft are generally just, strangely balanced.
Sky Sabre outclasses every radar anti aircraft (including BUK M3, where BUK M3 gets better range and overall top speed), IRIS-T outclass every IR anti aircraft platform being a stealthy system where the aircraft just explode, something that other anti aircraft cannot do.
On the other hand, you get Type 03 which is a bulky, 6km min-range at best, barely 15km range, only thing it makes up for is hardened radar seeker on the Type 4 missiles - every other aspect it’s quite garbage
Then you got something that outshines everything - Pantsir SM SV which falls a little bit in like the Sky sabre class, but add some guns and drop the fire and forget capability. Overall it’s just stupid how some anti aircraft are not allowed to perform near their real life figures like Type 03 (barely 15km range, really) but some others are allowed?
Sadly it’s almost always been like that with anti air
Gaijin doesn’t seem to care about adding important features when it comes to anti air most of the time
When they add new anti air vehicles (well, vehicles in general), they seem to get their info about specs and performance from some consultants and if the info they get from their consultants makes the vehicles weaker than they should be, it is up to the players to find proper sources that would provide info about how exactly the vehicle should really perform
Sometimes that info is easy to find, but other times it is nearly impossible to find, so the more obscure vehicles may end up being stuck with underperforming statistics
The top tier SAMs were rushed and undercooked implementations and it seems like fixing them and adding missing features isn’t a priority at all, which is why CAS still is much stronger than most anti air systems
The Pantsir SM-SV, while still being extremely powerful, wouldn’t even be such an upsetting addition, if the other SAMs were properly modelled (and CAS wasn’t so well equipped to just counter or even ignore anti air systems)
Older anti air systems are still waiting for important fixes, most SACLOS SAMs that would be ACLOS IRL will probably remain SACLOS forever in-game
Gaijin probably won’t add any aiming/guiding assistance for such systems to offset the fact that the missiles tend to waste most of their energy because of the guidance is implemented (I’m pretty sure they could use the missile aiming assist that top tier planes get for SAMs)
Non-radar SPAAs don’t get any kind of aiming assistance, even though even WW2 anti air guns had special sights and rangefinders to help gunners reliably hit planes. I’m not expecting radar-like lead assistance, but at least give us a way to roughly rangefind planes…
It’s a shame, really, but the majority of players seems to prefer CAS being so extremely powerful and don’t care about the SPAA/SAM imbalance
And Gaijin certainly doesn’t care about prioritizing gameplay and balance over historical accuracy and “realism”
Hermes has like 15 kilograms grams of he filler with a 25kg warhead no? Unless they make it too attack it isnt going to be very useful, besides has that even ever even been seen outside the prototype?
A quick google search says that the explosive filler weighs 13 kg
It seems to have been almost fully developed, but nobody seems to have bought it
The only other thing that comes close to the Pantsir SM-SV for NATO is the Swedish RBS 23 BAMSE. It’s telars have 6 missiles each, have a range of 20Km and a speed of Mach 3-3.5 but still doesn’t come close to the Pantsir.
Yeah i meant 15 kilograms, so itwould probably have more pen than cmo502 becauseof its faster speed probably wouldnt be very good though. Shouldn’t be added either way.
There are a couple of systems that would do similar jobs as the Pantsir SM-SV, but they all are SHORAD
I would say that the Skyrangers and the HVSD/ADAMS would be the closest equivalents to the SM-SV, as they all are meant to serve as CIWS/C-RAMs, while also having access to regular SAMs
The BAMSE lacks a gun, so it wouldn’t be very useful at all in an environment where planes can deliver a boatload of guided bombs or 6 Kh-38s and helis can just spam between 8 and 16 FnF ATGMs
I legitimately think that the DRACO (the upgraded Otomatic) would be more useful than the BAMSE, even though it doesn’t come with any missiles
There also are the MLBPWS, but that’s just a mobile Phalanx without missiles and the LD-2000, but that one is Chinese and also lacks missiles
I’m not sure about the M-SHORADs interceptor capabilities, so I don’t know if that would be useful (it does have Hellfires though, which is pretty cool)
They’ve moved onto laser SHORAD aka DE M-SHORAD to augment the kinetic interception M-SHORAD vehicles.
But yeah you’re right it has the same interception capabilities as the 2S38 aka nobody knows lol
https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2024/army/2024de_m-shorad.pdf
I cannot stress how badly most of the SPAA suffer from not having a gun
Again like on the clusterf*ck map Afghanistan is, where people literally can pop up and carpet bomb you because you cant go anywhere else. The gun on the Pantsirs is a godsend, because at least when you hear them coming, you can shred them for it.
I have to stop you here. Have you used sky sabre?
Frontally Tow2a may not have enough pen against most top tier tanks? It is the one that
I think the thing here is that at with the barrel fired russian atgms, the pen is low enough where it can’t reliably pen most tanks frontally, and you have to maintain LOS with the target regardless
Compared to fnf missles that will always come down at an angle that will penetrate 90% of the time? I’m just trying to gauge why they wouldn’t model these correctly.
Yeah, dunno if I’d agree either, but I have no experience with any of the other top tier SAMs
The Sky Sabre isn’t doing too hot tho lol
Every so often I hear someone all-so-confidently say the sky sabre is good somehow and I seriously do wonder if we’re using the same system sometimes.
This damn thing just voluntarily misses the easiest targets known to man because… why not?? Easily worst SAM I’ve ever used. Better performance with starstreak. At toptier.
So called thrust vectoring missile when asked to hit a maneuvering target
The TOW-2A has enough pen to pen most top tier tanks, you just can’t lolpen enemies, but even the 1000mm+ ATGMs need to be aimed
Obviously the same spots that a dart would penetrate work for the TOW-2A (and other ATGMs as well), but depending on the enemy tank hitting the cheeks can also work.
There definitely is a difference between 800mm pen and 1200mm pen, but 800mm generally is enough and you should always aim for weakspots, no matter what weapon you are using.
The Kornet does have the advantage that is is abale to pen the cheeks of some NATO MBTs, but it’s not that hard to aim for the other weakspots on those lol
Some comparisons:
(didn’t include the ZT3A2 and HOT-2 in the T-90M and T-80BVM ones because there was no meaningful difference between the TOW-2A and the Kornet)
The part of me that believes that Gaijin has some sense of balance would like to believe that Gaijin didn’t model the top attack mechanic for other FnF ATGMs because they thought that it would make them too OP
The more realistic reason is that they wanted to make the Mi-28NM as powerful as possible to make people buy the Ka-50 (and Mi-35P) and to boost top tier USSR winrates to, again, sell more USSR premiums
Gotta keep that high they got through the BMPT up, you know?
Now that the Pantsir SM-SV is in the game they potentially might go back and give the JAGMs and China’s equivalent top attack behaviour as well to throw non-USSR players a bone
I’m sure they will add an unbalanced vehicle to another nation soon and milk that. Just like old times lol
The usual “They dominated for X amount of time, now we should get to dominate for Y amount of time”
Well the BA-11s have the shortest spool-up time out of all the F&Fs so I don’t think they’ll see any changes😅
I know absolutely nothing about China’s ATGMs, so I can’t tell if they are good without being top attack like the LMUR
Let’s just say they’re JAGMs with higher penetration and damage, with quicker spool-up time… at the cost of only being able to take 8 of them instead of 16 (somewhat like the Mi-28NM, except you can also carry 4x TY-90s and 4x CM-502KGs or 8x CM-502KGs too).
