I barely scratched the surface (badumtss) there in terms of their current and future procurements, didn’t even mention 6 new attack submarines either, nor a plethora of other new ships/equipment.
Finally, if there’s something everyone needs to realize, it’s that More money != better.
Correct, but having more money means more resources, more chances
:)
Then you have to use those resources efficiently.
Besides if you want to go down the resources path you also need to go in the population and land area, which is both off topic and kind of useless to describe the current situation, since it takes ages to transform money or resources into a capable military, not to mention it has to be planned and done correctly (see new US surface ships program. Plenty of money poured into it, for what results ?)
On the latter point, the recent remarks from a certain german CEO regarding the drones made in a certain eastern european country is not exactly reassuring.
We also have multiple examples of smaller / poorer countries with less resources doing better than their bigger / richer counterparts.
You are also not considering all of the budget France has in equipment that Germany doesn’t operate, such as the entire nuclear deterrence system, as well as an aircraft carrier and nuclear powered submarines.
Germany is also not a paragon of good decisions. The frigate project is basically at a stand still due to the huge cost overruns of having incompatible softwares, and are looking into other solutions, which strangely is very similar to the MBT situation in France.
Also, taking the original quote :
Likely France would still go for a somewhat indigenous design for the artillery (and electrical equipment). It’s highly unlikely they would develop their own hull since they basically lost the capability due to the Leclerc end of prod (yet they have continued developing and building turrets so that is not a lost competence - yet)
Aside from who’s to blame (which we probably have very different opinions on), France could still develop the FCAS (maybe alone, maybe with India, who showed interest, maybe with the UAE, who also showed interests). Either way, if they leave the program, FCAS is still going to happen. France still has the know how to built fighter jets from tip to tail independently. It would strain the budget, but the budget is here for such important systems.
Now, Germany probably has more money to pour in their indigenous FCAS system, however there is a real question to whether they would be even half as efficient as France per Euro spent in the project. Meaning that even if they had double the budget, they probably wouldn’t do better. After all, the EFT program cost has been quite a lot higher for, in the end, pretty similar capabilities as the rafale
Using the disaster that is the MBT procurement of France (and has been for decades), to discuss unrelated and much more important projects that have historically been developed no matter what is a bit stupid
The F-126 debacle isn’t Germany’s fault to begin with - it was Damen, who was unable to deliver on their promises, and not just to Germany. Since then, RHM and Lurssen have taken over the project, and it is being steered back onto the course.
On the other hand, the F-128 AEGIS ASW frigate project is already starting construction with the first to be delivered in 3 years, and the F-127 project has not had any delays, nor have the 212CD submarines.
All projects, that had been started within Germany itself, have not had any issues with the budget, nor are delayed.
France could still develop the FCAS
Dassault doesn’t think so. They made it clear that they’d rather focus on improving the Rafale, and secondly, with how France is treating India on the Rafale deal i.e refusing to transfer the data that was agreed upon, it is unlikely they’d sponsor France’s/Dassaults development of the FCAS, as they’d run into the same issues as they had with Germany and Spain…
After all, the EFT program cost has been quite a lot higher for, in the end, pretty similar capabilities as the rafale
EFT had to cater to different nations.
Assuming Germany and Spain remain, and begin the FCAS anew without France, and possibly invite Sweden onto the project (all 3 have the same sort of aircraft in mind, do note), it’s likely there wouldn’t be issues with ‘efficiency’ per se.
France still has the know how to built fighter jets from tip to tail independently
A FOURTH GEN one. Developing a sixth generation aircraft is new territory for everyone, even the US, their own 6th gen is currently delayed at least til late 2030s, if not into early 2040s (and they have first-hand experience with 5th gen aircraft that are vastly more similar to what’s being developed than any of Dassault’s ventures), and even France’s Safran needed MTU’s expertise/help with the engine, and ironically, these two didn’t have any issues working together as they didn’t mind sharing technologies with each other (something something Dassault and Airbus bickering).
As much as you think France would be capable of delivering “on time and on bugdet”, no, all 6th gens are facing issues as of now, either with timetables, or budgets.
On the other side of the rhine, both the FREMM and FDI project have been successful, with the first FDI finishing their trials at sea.
Of the projects started within France, we can see a similar pattern as well tho. You make it seem like the German are another breed entirely
When have they said that ? Dassault CEO has always said that he « agreed » with the FCAS project being international only because the politicians asked him to do it.
France and India’s rafale deal currently fits both nations. If FCAS were to be « sponsored » by India, it would be very clear from the beginning that Dassault will be the leader of the project - which apparently hasn’t been clear for FCAS. I would go as far to say that while India is interested in joining the French if FCAS breaks up, it would be the French government refusing sharing tech with India that would be the main issue
And was more than 3x as expensive to develop, while France had to cater to 2 completely different armies (air and navy) - which undoubtedly is at least as much a factor as between 2 countries, one wishing for air superiority, the other for a ground attacker for example
Didn’t say it would be on time or on budget. I do however completely believe that France can make as much of a 6th gen fighter alone than with the German. After all, Germany also hasn’t any experience with 6th gen. Neither with 5th gen, as their involvement with the f35 development is close to none - compared to the UK for example.
I don’t see how not being with a country that also hasn’t any experience in that domain would render France incapable of producing the FCAS*
And i thought France was always the issue in international programs…
Also Puma was not a transnational cooperation afaik, but ran into some issues as well
Puma was also the first ever IFV like that implemented on a big scale, and its issues were generally miniscule (on top of the vastly more stringet Germany requirements for reliability compared to Frances) - or maybe should we mention how Jaguar had not had stabilisation until the so called “Phase 2” or its issues? :P
Leclerc’s overheating engine too? :P
Puma still delivered by 2015, like it was supposed to.
(everything past this is for @vizender)
I don’t see how not being with a country that also hasn’t any experience in that domain would render France incapable of producing the FCAS*
In that technologies being produced don’t compare, and require nations to invest a lot into R&D.
Then again, it wouldn’t be only Germany going at it, but likely Spain, Germany, and Sweden, with Sweden having developed a 4th gen aircraft as well, thus being a rather nice replacement in case airframe development doesn’t go smoothly.
gen fighter alone than with the German
I mean… maybe by 2080 then lol.
which undoubtedly is at least as much a factor as between 2 countries, one wishing for air superiority, the other for a ground attacker for example
No? If you look into both, the differences between “air” and “naval” Rafales are vastly less than what different EFT partners envisioned, so much so there were arguments about different airframes and engines.
Of the projects started within France, we can see a similar pattern as well tho. You make it seem like the German are another breed entirely
I wasn’t the one bringing up on-going projects and claiming that “they’re over the budgets and not on time” and trying to blame X country for it as an argument, like you - who tried to put F-126s issues on Germany.
I would go as far to say that while India is interested in joining the French if FCAS breaks up, it would be the French government refusing sharing tech with India that would be the main issue
India is only interested because of the technologies, if they don’t get access, you’re not getting a partner. Airbus likely wouldn’t have had an issues either if Dassault wasn’t a hole about not wanting to share developed technologies :P
On the other side of the rhine, both the FREMM and FDI project have been successful, with the first FDI finishing their trials at sea.
Congrats? Again, you were the one who brought up the Niedersaschen-class here to circlejork France “being on time and buget while Germany isn’t”. All I did was show that it wasn’t Germany’s fault, and that the projects they lead aren’t having issues lol.
Guys when did this thread became a piss content from Leclerc’s problems?
Just appreciate what both country brings to the table and focus on main issue.
Not like Leclerc will ever get fixed (read: buffed/nerfed to what it should be), might as well beat the dead horse in some other way :P
Ahh piss off Xd.
I know Leclerc is not on par with latest gen Leopards but I still like them a lot.
You see, if you give up on everything, you just become me. Just don’t hope for anything you like getting fixed, and cause chaos
I already give up long ago, when i noticed you can disable Leclerc’s FCS by simply shooting gunners optic even with something Low caliber I genuinely laughed quite hard.
At this point Gaijin is delirabetely nerfing NATO vehicles into the ground.
When you play this game, this is what inevitably happens—myself included
“explain but doesn’t excuse” type of situation, i suppose
Which in terms, mean vastly different needs, and just like the EFT, potential cost ballooning. You can’t argue on one side that « the EFT cost a lot due to many players », and then say « many partners is better »
That’s your opinion. The difference between 5th and 6th gen visibly has more to due with inter connectivity than anything else. France’s scorpion program (which has largely been on time and budget), and the rafale F5 are supposed to give the foundations blocs of 6th gen. 5th gen has already been explored through the rafale and especially the Neuron drone by dassault (which was the first of any European country to possess an anechoic room for airplane testing).
France has shown to be capable of developing a new design even faster than the EFT consortium. It might not be the case for a potential 6th gen developed alone, but to say that they’d take 40 years to develop 6th gen without Germany is bonkers.
I wasn’t the one to bring the MBT development issues to talk about a fighter jet development program with vastly different actors and requirements
India still is going through the rafale deal as it was laid out to them. As I said, it’s likely that the French government wouldn’t accept such a foreign partner. But India remains the largest military client of France, and contrary to Germany, has yet to have fricked France over a development or upgrade of a system, so they might accept some concessions.
Nor was I.
India still is going through the rafale deal as it was laid out to them. As I said, it’s likely that the French government wouldn’t accept such a foreign partner. But India remains the largest military client of France, and contrary to Germany, has yet to have fricked France over a development or upgrade of a system, so they might accept some concessions.
Because currently they don’t have a choice in the deal. They wouldn’t accept consessions like that in regards to R&D of a 6th gen.
France has shown to be capable of developing a new design even faster than the EFT consortium. It might not be the case for a potential 6th gen developed alone, but to say that they’d take 40 years to develop 6th gen without Germany is bonkers.
Is it? Because as it stands, France, with its non-existent budget, would take that much. They had to cancel a bunch of drone projects just to find funds for other things, and if Germany’s and Spain’s funds “go out the window”, and India doesn’t get what they want, France will be left straggling for any money to develop it - or as more in the know-how people described, be left with the Rafale for the next half century.
foundations blocs of 6th gen
Welcome to EFT T5/+
I plead guilty, but the constant “germany better” while leaving out parts of the article (french turret still most likely to be chosen anyway), all while ignoring the global context gets quite tiring in the long run.
Returning the favor honestly, I’ve read/heard that thrown our way over the past few months while I was just ignoring it way too many times for even my patience.
Then again, the fact a Leopard 2A7V hull is the most likely choice is genuinely funny to me cause it means even DGA recognises its superiority heh :P
Considering Leclerc’s hull never recieved new internal armor packages nor Spall liners can you blame them?
Honestly I feel like Leclerc’s potential is wasted by French Government.
I think it was overengineered from the start tbh
Too expensive, not easy to maintain, too few numbers.
Now add post cold war budgets and new priorities in the form of drones, navy ships replacement and deterrence, and you see the result X)