Another western tanks advantage bite the dust…French tax in action sad you should buff the ru tanks a bit more too
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nato tanks still outreload the T tanks
don’t matter - the way this game is going may as well just play russia
go do that then, bitching and yapping on forums wont change anything
people lose their shit every time anything russian gets added, this is no exception
oh it didnt go well for you xD
oh no numbers my arch enemy…
Well if all the primary evidence points to ~6 sec there does seem to be little leeway to argue for 5. @WaretaGarasu was the creator of the report so maybe he could have some additional insight.
If the reload does get changed to 6s the Leclerc will have even fewer reedeming qualities, but other than a armour rework (which we all know is very unlikely to happen) there doesn’t seem to be many ways to make the tank competitive among its peers. Sad, but it is what it is.
(Maybe someone in the thread is actually the Chief of the Staff of the French Army and can pull some strings to declassify a bit of info on the Leclercs? ;> )
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We need to do a deep infiltration of the general staff of the fench forces. Get an agent to make the staff fall in love with them and convince them to declassify just the leclerc autoloader system specifications.
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Well, first of all, you don’t need anything other than the primary source, because, as @Gunjob pointed out, all the others are just copies of it.
Secondly, the T-64 repair manual confirms the cyclogram data, which you are obviously not aware of.
Thirdly, the MZ can be adjusted manually, and the repair manual allows for a difference of up to 0.5 seconds in the main actions during reloading, which obviously means that in the video you can see tanks in different states and settings. In real life, no one cares whether your shell reloads in 6 or 6.3 seconds, for example.
The Leclerc video shows a reload time of 8 seconds. Should we take this value?
And finally: there are plenty of videos online showing an almost complete charging cycle taking 5.5 seconds, which means that a full cycle can be completed in 6 seconds or even slightly faster.
The video shows the time from the start of the tray rotation for one shell to the lowering of the lever.
This takes ~5.5 seconds. In fact, the video does not show the steps “pressing the MZ button” and “returning the gun to the firing angle” .
The first step does not relate to the loading mechanism at all, as it is literally a person pressing a button and can be disregarded (and it is not necessary when firing in bursts, but I don’t even want to mention that).
At the same time, if the cannon was immediately at the loading angle, the shot can be fired immediately after the 5.5-second timer ends.
you cannot start counting reload time from an already moving carousel even if you start counting one shell before it simply isnt accurate, i linked a pretty good video which starts from a standstill on a side by side reload, use that.
I can. Add an extra 0.1 seconds of conveyor acceleration. It doesn’t matter. Reloading the MZ can even be faster than 6 seconds under ideal conditions. The video confirms this as well.
Or do you think that accelerating the conveyor belt takes an extra second? That’s nonsense.
The video shows the conveyor turning literally three shells, not one.
In addition, the MZ in the video is in terrible condition. In your video, it takes more than 4 seconds from the start of the shell’s ascent from the return of the feeder chain, while in my video it takes exactly 3 seconds.
I have already clearly explained that the MZ has a wide range of adjustment speeds within the permissible values.
Here’s an example. These are the three longest operations in the charging process. The repair manual says that they can take a total of 3.78 to 5.05 seconds, which is still within the normal range.
In your video, the MZ does not even correspond to the worst time, in my opinion. In my video, the indicators are close to the best (1.7 for lifting the lever, 0.6 for sending, and 1.6 for lowering).
In my video, the MZ is in perfect condition, close to the best results. It will load the projectile faster than 6 seconds, especially if you don’t need to lower the barrel and the shot is from the loading angle (almost never happens, but this is the technical maximum).
Therefore, it makes no sense to poke around with an old, poorly tuned MZ. In reality, no one cares whether it takes 6, 6.5, or 7 seconds to charge. If it works, people prefer not to touch it.
Not really a primary source when it comes to french vehicles though, and as stated by others above, not just one are mentioning “<6 seconds” in the sources you shared
it certainly sounds improbable, but its unless you measure it its pointless, and just as improbable is that it takes a tenth of a second, again we have videos we dont need to speculate.
this videos is from 2022/2023, these tanks are likely right off the refurbishing line, not to mention your video is missing as step or 2 if you want to count the raising and lowering of the gun(its counted ingame just not modelled physically), if it isnt a problem can i ask what the source of the video is?
this is wrong, the delay between when you press a button and the loader starts moving is still part of the loading mechanism.
i dont see many tanks shooting at the sky personally.
To be honest, this conversation with you is not serious. You essentially do not know the question and are simply inattentive.
According to the manual, turning the tray for one shell takes 0.35-0.4 seconds.
Turning the tray + braking takes 0.8-0.9 seconds. In my video, turning the tray + braking takes about 0.88 seconds.
What else do I need to prove? Everything is right in front of you, but you can’t see it. I just did you an extra favor of 0.1 seconds so you wouldn’t nitpick.
Don’t be ridiculous. It’s an old tank.
Yes, the lowering time is not shown (WHICH I CLEARLY SAID). However, it takes 0.2-0.25 seconds, which gives me a total loading time of 5.75 seconds, which is even better than the cycle diagram or what is in the game.
No, it’s not a “delay.” It’s the physical process of “pressing” the button.
Can you show me at least one more cycle diagram where this is taken into account?
Moreover, this is offset by the fact that the gunner can press the reload button in advance before firing or use the “Серия” mode, where pressing is not required.
That’s a valid point. Tell that to the many experts on Leclerc reloading above, where they measure reloading without raising and lowering the gun.
However, the video clearly shows that the full cycle with firing, lowering, and raising the gun takes 7-8 seconds (I’m too lazy to set a timer).
Something modern that I found on the internet.
Here’s another angle, if you like.
I don’t know why you are arguing with me about MZ, considering that I showed you the video and answered even the smallest nitpicks in full.
The time selected in the game is more than achievable in MZ.
Moreover, I can show you proposals to refine MZ to a speed of 4.5-5 seconds, which, according to the primary source, were made.
(Here in photo 2, there is a link to the description of the acceleration of the MZ from photo 1 and the statement that “it was done.”)
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you
i reread the cyclogram which is definetly something i shouldve thought to do when you showed the video.
and it does really make sense, you were making assumptions, but so was i, and the fact the video i showed was the one the furthest from the cyclogram whilst the video you found coincides pretty close with the stages of showed in it inherently makes your point more valid.
thats it for me tbh, the vast majority of videos on these tanks show a longer reload, but your video + the fact there is significant difference in the video i used inherently shows that maintenance has a significant effect on the system, which is something i discounted as i always heard these systems were very rugged and simple to maintain at peak efficency.
it going faster than 6 seconds though? im interested in what you found
as far as the leclerc goes? i have no info on the tank, i dont like it so i never bothered reading up on the tank so i dont have a thought to add to the convo, i do think the type 10 should receive a buffed reload, as they clearly arent getting a realistic armor profile anytime soon, leopard 2 reload is also too slow imo
That’s true, but I explained to you why that is.
Unlike AZ, MZ is adjusted by crews, not at factories, so many people can do something wrong.
In real life, no one is bothered by 6 or 7 or even 8 seconds of reloading time.
Much more time is spent on re-aiming, calculating ballistics, and exchanging commands. This is even described in previously secret “internal journals” where Soviet design bureaus discussed possible improvements and problems with tanks.
There is a Russian saying, “If it works, don’t touch it.” I think that’s the reason here. If your autoloader works stably and doesn’t jam, why would you touch it, trying to speed up reloading by 0.5 seconds?
This description comes from previously classified internal journals and studies. The earlier one describes a method for reducing reload time to 4.5-5 seconds, while the later one states “it was done” and references that article.
Personally, I adhere to the proven cyclogram and the fact that I have not seen a reload time of 5 seconds.
Perhaps it meant that some changes from that article had been made (there were many of them). One of them stated that when charging an ATGM, a lot of time is spent charging the hydraulic accumulator, which is why the T-64B and T-80B charge in 7.1 seconds.
And now, in the T-80U/UD, this has been corrected.
Reloading without an automatic loading system is a balancing factor entirely (well, within reasonable limits; I don’t think we’ll ever see 3 seconds for a 120 mm gun), so it’s purely a question of balance.
Type 10/90 definitely has grounds based on the video, where you can see 3-3.5 seconds, but the video is the source for the reports. Unfortunately, there is a problem with the lack of good written sources. As far as I understand, there is virtually no publicly available data on this.
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i know which is why this opinion on leopard 2 leads in the take that i dont think late leopard 2s are so strong that a buffed reload would make them outrageously strong, personally though i care about american british and chinese tanks getting fixed, the 50mm turret ring has been a thing for too long, + dtc10-125 seems a bit bad for 12.7, and the vt4a1 should get side era
https://x.com/knds_france/status/2008228637250621937?s=46
Spicy…
Looks like EMBT ADT140 has had actual test firing !
Can’t wait for June, looks like we’ll have more info by then (eurosatory)
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Yeah it will be cool to see more about it.
im hopeing we see the Lelcec Evolution with the 140mm. Also an APS system on Lelcerc XLR and EBRC Jaguar. Maybe even a 120mm cannon on VBCI
Well have to wait at least 1-2 years for this, the program is just very slow…
Look no further than VEXTRA pole.
Basically a Leclerc turret which fires at a lower chamber pressure (to not destroy the hull when firing).
Don’t expect any new projects going that way, this is definitely not in the French plans to redo a wheeled Hugh caliber gun, as the jaguar is supposed to replace them with its Akeron and CTAC 40mm canon
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