The Leclerc is in dire need of a buff

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
5777

I can. Add an extra 0.1 seconds of conveyor acceleration. It doesn’t matter. Reloading the MZ can even be faster than 6 seconds under ideal conditions. The video confirms this as well.
Or do you think that accelerating the conveyor belt takes an extra second? That’s nonsense.

The video shows the conveyor turning literally three shells, not one.

In addition, the MZ in the video is in terrible condition. In your video, it takes more than 4 seconds from the start of the shell’s ascent from the return of the feeder chain, while in my video it takes exactly 3 seconds.

I have already clearly explained that the MZ has a wide range of adjustment speeds within the permissible values.
Here’s an example. These are the three longest operations in the charging process. The repair manual says that they can take a total of 3.78 to 5.05 seconds, which is still within the normal range.

In your video, the MZ does not even correspond to the worst time, in my opinion. In my video, the indicators are close to the best (1.7 for lifting the lever, 0.6 for sending, and 1.6 for lowering).

In my video, the MZ is in perfect condition, close to the best results. It will load the projectile faster than 6 seconds, especially if you don’t need to lower the barrel and the shot is from the loading angle (almost never happens, but this is the technical maximum).

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Therefore, it makes no sense to poke around with an old, poorly tuned MZ. In reality, no one cares whether it takes 6, 6.5, or 7 seconds to charge. If it works, people prefer not to touch it.

5778

Not really a primary source when it comes to french vehicles though, and as stated by others above, not just one are mentioning “<6 seconds” in the sources you shared

5779

it certainly sounds improbable, but its unless you measure it its pointless, and just as improbable is that it takes a tenth of a second, again we have videos we dont need to speculate.

this videos is from 2022/2023, these tanks are likely right off the refurbishing line, not to mention your video is missing as step or 2 if you want to count the raising and lowering of the gun(its counted ingame just not modelled physically), if it isnt a problem can i ask what the source of the video is?

this is wrong, the delay between when you press a button and the loader starts moving is still part of the loading mechanism.

i dont see many tanks shooting at the sky personally.

5780

To be honest, this conversation with you is not serious. You essentially do not know the question and are simply inattentive.

According to the manual, turning the tray for one shell takes 0.35-0.4 seconds.
Turning the tray + braking takes 0.8-0.9 seconds. In my video, turning the tray + braking takes about 0.88 seconds.

What else do I need to prove? Everything is right in front of you, but you can’t see it. I just did you an extra favor of 0.1 seconds so you wouldn’t nitpick.

Don’t be ridiculous. It’s an old tank.

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Yes, the lowering time is not shown (WHICH I CLEARLY SAID). However, it takes 0.2-0.25 seconds, which gives me a total loading time of 5.75 seconds, which is even better than the cycle diagram or what is in the game.
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No, it’s not a “delay.” It’s the physical process of “pressing” the button.

Can you show me at least one more cycle diagram where this is taken into account?

Moreover, this is offset by the fact that the gunner can press the reload button in advance before firing or use the “Серия” mode, where pressing is not required.

That’s a valid point. Tell that to the many experts on Leclerc reloading above, where they measure reloading without raising and lowering the gun.

However, the video clearly shows that the full cycle with firing, lowering, and raising the gun takes 7-8 seconds (I’m too lazy to set a timer).

Something modern that I found on the internet.

Here’s another angle, if you like.

I don’t know why you are arguing with me about MZ, considering that I showed you the video and answered even the smallest nitpicks in full.

The time selected in the game is more than achievable in MZ.

Moreover, I can show you proposals to refine MZ to a speed of 4.5-5 seconds, which, according to the primary source, were made.
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(Here in photo 2, there is a link to the description of the acceleration of the MZ from photo 1 and the statement that “it was done.”)

1 Like
5781

you

i reread the cyclogram which is definetly something i shouldve thought to do when you showed the video.

and it does really make sense, you were making assumptions, but so was i, and the fact the video i showed was the one the furthest from the cyclogram whilst the video you found coincides pretty close with the stages of showed in it inherently makes your point more valid.

thats it for me tbh, the vast majority of videos on these tanks show a longer reload, but your video + the fact there is significant difference in the video i used inherently shows that maintenance has a significant effect on the system, which is something i discounted as i always heard these systems were very rugged and simple to maintain at peak efficency.
it going faster than 6 seconds though? im interested in what you found

as far as the leclerc goes? i have no info on the tank, i dont like it so i never bothered reading up on the tank so i dont have a thought to add to the convo, i do think the type 10 should receive a buffed reload, as they clearly arent getting a realistic armor profile anytime soon, leopard 2 reload is also too slow imo

5782

That’s true, but I explained to you why that is.

Unlike AZ, MZ is adjusted by crews, not at factories, so many people can do something wrong.

In real life, no one is bothered by 6 or 7 or even 8 seconds of reloading time.

Much more time is spent on re-aiming, calculating ballistics, and exchanging commands. This is even described in previously secret “internal journals” where Soviet design bureaus discussed possible improvements and problems with tanks.
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There is a Russian saying, “If it works, don’t touch it.” I think that’s the reason here. If your autoloader works stably and doesn’t jam, why would you touch it, trying to speed up reloading by 0.5 seconds?

This description comes from previously classified internal journals and studies. The earlier one describes a method for reducing reload time to 4.5-5 seconds, while the later one states “it was done” and references that article.

Personally, I adhere to the proven cyclogram and the fact that I have not seen a reload time of 5 seconds.

Perhaps it meant that some changes from that article had been made (there were many of them). One of them stated that when charging an ATGM, a lot of time is spent charging the hydraulic accumulator, which is why the T-64B and T-80B charge in 7.1 seconds.
And now, in the T-80U/UD, this has been corrected.

Reloading without an automatic loading system is a balancing factor entirely (well, within reasonable limits; I don’t think we’ll ever see 3 seconds for a 120 mm gun), so it’s purely a question of balance.

Type 10/90 definitely has grounds based on the video, where you can see 3-3.5 seconds, but the video is the source for the reports. Unfortunately, there is a problem with the lack of good written sources. As far as I understand, there is virtually no publicly available data on this.

1 Like
5783

i know which is why this opinion on leopard 2 leads in the take that i dont think late leopard 2s are so strong that a buffed reload would make them outrageously strong, personally though i care about american british and chinese tanks getting fixed, the 50mm turret ring has been a thing for too long, + dtc10-125 seems a bit bad for 12.7, and the vt4a1 should get side era

5784

https://x.com/knds_france/status/2008228637250621937?s=46
Spicy…
Looks like EMBT ADT140 has had actual test firing !
Can’t wait for June, looks like we’ll have more info by then (eurosatory)

2 Likes
5785

Yeah it will be cool to see more about it.

5786

im hopeing we see the Lelcec Evolution with the 140mm. Also an APS system on Lelcerc XLR and EBRC Jaguar. Maybe even a 120mm cannon on VBCI

5787

Well have to wait at least 1-2 years for this, the program is just very slow…

Look no further than VEXTRA pole.
Basically a Leclerc turret which fires at a lower chamber pressure (to not destroy the hull when firing).
Don’t expect any new projects going that way, this is definitely not in the French plans to redo a wheeled Hugh caliber gun, as the jaguar is supposed to replace them with its Akeron and CTAC 40mm canon

1 Like
5788

To be honest, Leclerc has about the mobility you would expect from a light wheeled tank. 70km/h offroad + 90km/h on road … That’s very close to a wheeled vehicle.

When compared to a wheeled tank, only maintenance and autonomy are keeping the Leclerc back.
But France’s MoD realized that when wheeled vehicles are needed, armor usually isn’t (Africa is large but the forces France encounters there are usually infantry or at best light armor).

5789

The vt4a1 and Wz1001 are far worse than the t90m you have every issue the 90m has but zero armor or survivability if you get shot. You are also not mobile enough in either of these tanks to out speed and beat light tanks.

A lot of other mbts aren’t that much slower than you and since stabilizers break at 45mph you are not in a stabilized vehicle when driving the Vt4a1 and Wz1001 at top speed as they are 1 mph over this limit. Also the VT4a1 doesn’t really have a reverse gear as well. Furthermore Chinese ERA doesn’t do funky stuff like russian era does despite having similar protection, in fact it seems a lot more likely to just fail entirely. I think the issue is people aren’t being dumb about shooting the t90m they are just shooting for the driver port/ gun mantlet and slightly snagging an era panel which will just eat the round or they hit the trunnions on the t90m breach and the round disappears

5790

Scuse me ? the WZ1001 is one of the most mobile top tier MBTs both forwards and backwards?
has better pen as well due to the longer barrel.
VT4A1 has the APS, also has a faster reload as well.

oh it does, it quite literally does stop a lot of stuff.
Wanna see my WZ1001 after two KH38 hits?

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  • 17kmph VS -4?
    the VT4A1 is substantially more mobile than T90M dude, both forwards and backwards.

They are stabilised when I’m using them the VT4 doesn’t break 70kmph and the WZ1001 it’s incredibly easy to not go over that threshold with it.
Which again, still leaves you 14kmph faster than the T90M.

I am sorry, but they shoot the center of the UFP in most cases if it’s not a kill shot.
When they actively do aim for a drivers port, turret ring, LFP, or any actual weakness, breach shot, it pretty much kills the tank dead in the water.
The chinese MBTs are extremely similar , though less protection all round especially cause of a lack of a spall liner.
They generally do out perform the T90M overall.

The game isn’t just protection you are aware of that?

5791

I don’t remember which is the leopard 2 thread, but because this is still somewhat relevant to France (compared to Chinese MBT discussion at least), KNDS tried the SHARD with Leopard 2A6s

Considering the current predicted capabilities of it on the shorter Leclerc gun, I do wonder how it’d compare 1 to 1 on the l44/56 (?) with the DM83

5792

Worse. The difference between L/52 and L/55 wouldn’t be that large, and we know that SHARD is at round the level of ~DM73 or DM63+, a round quite a bit inferior to DM83.

5793

i do find it sad, that the first real footage of a tank firing the shard has to be done from a leopard and not a leclerc to even make it attractive to people

And then as pointed out in the comments, it does seem to kinda womble. makes one question about accuracy at further ranges.

Well at least thats the best shard is ever gonna look being fired.
Would be nice if rheinmetall uses this to “trump” it a bit and advertise the DM83 right after.

Knds france at least has a lot of ambition this year, with the alreadier earlier released embt video

5794

What’s the DM83 expected performances (in war thunder)? By my crude calculations, the 56 brings about 5% more pen than the 44 (on the DM53 in game), so if we take the lowball pen of SHARD, it’d be 574+15%+5% would put it just shy of 700mm of penetration

EDIT : fuckkkk scratch that lmao, I used the l44 5% increase and then added the 15% increase from the Leclerc but I can’t use them together. We’d need to see OFL fired from L44 to actually do this calculation and take the l44 pen not Leclerc gun

5795

That comment claims that this is a constant issue with Nexter’s munition, while the OFL 120 have been shown to be very precise, and still equivalent to modern rounds. I do wonder if the comment actually refers to the HEAT/multipurpose round at the end of the video, which does wobble a fair bit

This is what really interests me. Shard is simply catchup, but the ASCALON has quite a lot of potential, and I still believe even more so than rheinmetals 130mm.
For example, they plan on making an hypersonic penetrator with a range of around 8km, so a very LOSAT like ammunition, and it could be very funny to see

5796

we dont know enough about the DM83 yet, lot of patens etc what we found out seems to be improvements trough form /new techniques etc.
That dont mix well with gajins formular system.
We already know since quite a while that german rounds are way denser then its currently being used.
But gajin doesnt wanna accept it, if it doesnt specialy say round this has a density of this