To be honest, Leclerc has about the mobility you would expect from a light wheeled tank. 70km/h offroad + 90km/h on road … That’s very close to a wheeled vehicle.
When compared to a wheeled tank, only maintenance and autonomy are keeping the Leclerc back.
But France’s MoD realized that when wheeled vehicles are needed, armor usually isn’t (Africa is large but the forces France encounters there are usually infantry or at best light armor).
The vt4a1 and Wz1001 are far worse than the t90m you have every issue the 90m has but zero armor or survivability if you get shot. You are also not mobile enough in either of these tanks to out speed and beat light tanks.
A lot of other mbts aren’t that much slower than you and since stabilizers break at 45mph you are not in a stabilized vehicle when driving the Vt4a1 and Wz1001 at top speed as they are 1 mph over this limit. Also the VT4a1 doesn’t really have a reverse gear as well. Furthermore Chinese ERA doesn’t do funky stuff like russian era does despite having similar protection, in fact it seems a lot more likely to just fail entirely. I think the issue is people aren’t being dumb about shooting the t90m they are just shooting for the driver port/ gun mantlet and slightly snagging an era panel which will just eat the round or they hit the trunnions on the t90m breach and the round disappears
Scuse me ? the WZ1001 is one of the most mobile top tier MBTs both forwards and backwards?
has better pen as well due to the longer barrel.
VT4A1 has the APS, also has a faster reload as well.
oh it does, it quite literally does stop a lot of stuff.
Wanna see my WZ1001 after two KH38 hits?
They are stabilised when I’m using them the VT4 doesn’t break 70kmph and the WZ1001 it’s incredibly easy to not go over that threshold with it.
Which again, still leaves you 14kmph faster than the T90M.
I am sorry, but they shoot the center of the UFP in most cases if it’s not a kill shot.
When they actively do aim for a drivers port, turret ring, LFP, or any actual weakness, breach shot, it pretty much kills the tank dead in the water.
The chinese MBTs are extremely similar , though less protection all round especially cause of a lack of a spall liner.
They generally do out perform the T90M overall.
The game isn’t just protection you are aware of that?
I don’t remember which is the leopard 2 thread, but because this is still somewhat relevant to France (compared to Chinese MBT discussion at least), KNDS tried the SHARD with Leopard 2A6s
Considering the current predicted capabilities of it on the shorter Leclerc gun, I do wonder how it’d compare 1 to 1 on the l44/56 (?) with the DM83
Worse. The difference between L/52 and L/55 wouldn’t be that large, and we know that SHARD is at round the level of ~DM73 or DM63+, a round quite a bit inferior to DM83.
i do find it sad, that the first real footage of a tank firing the shard has to be done from a leopard and not a leclerc to even make it attractive to people
And then as pointed out in the comments, it does seem to kinda womble. makes one question about accuracy at further ranges.
Well at least thats the best shard is ever gonna look being fired.
Would be nice if rheinmetall uses this to “trump” it a bit and advertise the DM83 right after.
Knds france at least has a lot of ambition this year, with the alreadier earlier released embt video
What’s the DM83 expected performances (in war thunder)? By my crude calculations, the 56 brings about 5% more pen than the 44 (on the DM53 in game), so if we take the lowball pen of SHARD, it’d be 574+15%+5% would put it just shy of 700mm of penetration
EDIT : fuckkkk scratch that lmao, I used the l44 5% increase and then added the 15% increase from the Leclerc but I can’t use them together. We’d need to see OFL fired from L44 to actually do this calculation and take the l44 pen not Leclerc gun
That comment claims that this is a constant issue with Nexter’s munition, while the OFL 120 have been shown to be very precise, and still equivalent to modern rounds. I do wonder if the comment actually refers to the HEAT/multipurpose round at the end of the video, which does wobble a fair bit
This is what really interests me. Shard is simply catchup, but the ASCALON has quite a lot of potential, and I still believe even more so than rheinmetals 130mm.
For example, they plan on making an hypersonic penetrator with a range of around 8km, so a very LOSAT like ammunition, and it could be very funny to see
we dont know enough about the DM83 yet, lot of patens etc what we found out seems to be improvements trough form /new techniques etc.
That dont mix well with gajins formular system.
We already know since quite a while that german rounds are way denser then its currently being used.
But gajin doesnt wanna accept it, if it doesnt specialy say round this has a density of this
tbf all top tier round basically have these issues
iirc there’s also a report for French rounds. I don’t remember seeing it implemented
Still a mystery to me
i am not sure if he specialy means all french rounds
we will see, that being said, lets be honest the race is lost.
Rheinmetall already has it under controll for the next decade.
Germany already officialy ordered development of leo with 130mm.
Italy and Hungary ordered KF51 with upgrade capability.
And Challenger 3 likely has the upgrade capability to 130mm as well.
Europes next caliber and gun is gonna be rheinmetalls once again.
I see no way around it anymore
i do wish we would see more smart rounds for L/55a1, but hasnt been done yet
By using 2017 estimates (i.e way before the design was finalished), 760mm long tungsten rod +/- ~100mm precursor tip (steel? WHA?), 730mm pen flat + 1.1* modifier (based on M829A3 studies that has a similar design) for a steel tip or 1.15* for a WHA tip - > 805mm or 839mm
Newer estimates put it at ~930mm total, likely wholey out of WHA, construction might be similar to early design estimates, but this also makes it easier to estimate since we can just combine the two into a monoblock rod, which would make it a 860mm long WHA projectile, in this case flat pen comes out to 816mm, so anywhere between 800mm and 840mm, basically.
So yeah… very much way above anything currently fielded except M829A4, but both are basically the developmental pinnacle for 120mm’s, so that’s not a surprise.
iirc there’s also a report for French rounds. I don’t remember seeing it implemented
Defo not for OFL F1/DM43 tho, seeing as the penetrator is 4kg, and the in-game equivalent weighs about 3.99kg iirc. Maybe for others, tho.
Yeah, but sadly this is IRL estimations, while in general the LO formula used in war thunder gives lower penetration values at these ranges. Plus, they don’t use fulcrum in the formula in war thunder. I am more interested in what value would be cooked for in game.
For example, all the discussions for shard have been around the OFL120F1 in game, while it’s more probable the 15% increase should be compared to the F2 DU variant, which claims to have similar performance as the F1 but at an extra kilometer (combination of both better ballistic and straight up better pen visibly), while the F2 in game would be marginally identical to the F1. And there was discussion at some point about the IRL performances of the OFL120F1 itself but I don’t really remember what where the talked values
Newer estimates put it at ~930mm total, likely wholey out of WHA, construction might be similar to early design estimates, but this also makes it easier to estimate since we can just combine the two into a monoblock rod, which would make it a 860mm long WHA projectile, in this case flat pen comes out to 816mm, so anywhere between 800mm and 840mm, basically.
I used L-O for this.
while it’s more probable the 15% increase should be compared to the F2 DU variant
Except it’s likely talking current generation “in-service” F1B:
Earlier they said this:
The new 120 SHARD has therefore a longer rod compared to previous Nexter F1 and F1B+ APFSDS rounds and this, together with the increase in propellant and muzzle velocity, brings to a performance improvement of 20% compared to older ammunition.
This was later revised down to 15% lol.
And there was discussion at some point about the IRL performances of the OFL120F1 itself but I don’t really remember what where the talked values
Currently overperforming a bit in WT, to a degree of about 10mm, as Gaijin overestimated the actual Tungsten penetrator length.
The top vehicles in the game are the best because of their protection levels not their mobility levels because war thunder maps have just become three lanes going straight at each other for the most part and honestly unless you are ungodly slow nobody really gets an advantage by being fast especially not a tank with a reload that makes it impossible to actually contest or use spots effectively, not to mention its lack of depression, the VT4A1 aps is funny occasionally but not really all that helpful usually as you are mostly getting shot by darts and a lot of cas elements can often just overwhelm you or kill you through it by size of explosion.
The wz1001 my personal favorite of the tanks and the only one I would consider good still lacks pretty much everything in order to have its speed, No pen, no reload, no survivability if you get shot and only okay protection, and No I don’t care you survived two kh38’s as that is an exception and not the normality with its armor, I’m not going to sit here and tell you how great the Ariete’s armor actually is because I survived a 1000 pound gbu to the forehead in it once. Chinese mbts are easily the worse mbts at top tier, and I’ve played a lot of bad tanks.
the only reason why the ariete is a little better than the wz is because or its good reload mobility and dm53
all the rest is pretty ass compared to the wz
its pretty much a big light tank
also the 5 sec reload doesnt make sense because of the tanks design
its much harder to lift a 120 mm round at waist level compared for example the abrams where the round are positioned at your chest which makes the transfer from the stowage to the breach easier
So I understand the comparison of the french shard and dm ammunition
But what the hell is an ariete wz comparison doing in the leclerc thread
Thats my point the chinese tanks suck.
Please go to DM or other related threads instead of continuing to argue on off topic vehicles please !
Going back to this for a moment.
It seems that French officials are adamant for the French tanks to keep a locally produced canon, even within the MGCS program.
I think it’s likely that, if the MGCS keeps being Franco-German, then it would feature both rheunmetal’s and KNDS canons depending on the specific variant.
KNDS was already made steps towards multi caliber compatibility with ASCALON being officially both 120 and 140mm but also claiming that 130mm could be developed if necessary. Now only the breach itself would need to be switched. It would obviously increase complexity of development, but I don’t think it’s too far fetched.
Now, this lies in the fact that MGCS sticks, which is becoming more and more improbable, since Germany will be going the Leo 2A8 and Leo 3 route most likely, while France is not planning to get intermediate vehicles aside from the Leclerc XLR, meaning their timeline don’t alike at all.
