tbf all top tier round basically have these issues
iirc there’s also a report for French rounds. I don’t remember seeing it implemented
Still a mystery to me
i am not sure if he specialy means all french rounds
we will see, that being said, lets be honest the race is lost.
Rheinmetall already has it under controll for the next decade.
Germany already officialy ordered development of leo with 130mm.
Italy and Hungary ordered KF51 with upgrade capability.
And Challenger 3 likely has the upgrade capability to 130mm as well.
Europes next caliber and gun is gonna be rheinmetalls once again.
I see no way around it anymore
i do wish we would see more smart rounds for L/55a1, but hasnt been done yet
By using 2017 estimates (i.e way before the design was finalished), 760mm long tungsten rod +/- ~100mm precursor tip (steel? WHA?), 730mm pen flat + 1.1* modifier (based on M829A3 studies that has a similar design) for a steel tip or 1.15* for a WHA tip - > 805mm or 839mm
Newer estimates put it at ~930mm total, likely wholey out of WHA, construction might be similar to early design estimates, but this also makes it easier to estimate since we can just combine the two into a monoblock rod, which would make it a 860mm long WHA projectile, in this case flat pen comes out to 816mm, so anywhere between 800mm and 840mm, basically.
So yeah… very much way above anything currently fielded except M829A4, but both are basically the developmental pinnacle for 120mm’s, so that’s not a surprise.
iirc there’s also a report for French rounds. I don’t remember seeing it implemented
Defo not for OFL F1/DM43 tho, seeing as the penetrator is 4kg, and the in-game equivalent weighs about 3.99kg iirc. Maybe for others, tho.
Yeah, but sadly this is IRL estimations, while in general the LO formula used in war thunder gives lower penetration values at these ranges. Plus, they don’t use fulcrum in the formula in war thunder. I am more interested in what value would be cooked for in game.
For example, all the discussions for shard have been around the OFL120F1 in game, while it’s more probable the 15% increase should be compared to the F2 DU variant, which claims to have similar performance as the F1 but at an extra kilometer (combination of both better ballistic and straight up better pen visibly), while the F2 in game would be marginally identical to the F1. And there was discussion at some point about the IRL performances of the OFL120F1 itself but I don’t really remember what where the talked values
Newer estimates put it at ~930mm total, likely wholey out of WHA, construction might be similar to early design estimates, but this also makes it easier to estimate since we can just combine the two into a monoblock rod, which would make it a 860mm long WHA projectile, in this case flat pen comes out to 816mm, so anywhere between 800mm and 840mm, basically.
I used L-O for this.
while it’s more probable the 15% increase should be compared to the F2 DU variant
Except it’s likely talking current generation “in-service” F1B:
Earlier they said this:
The new 120 SHARD has therefore a longer rod compared to previous Nexter F1 and F1B+ APFSDS rounds and this, together with the increase in propellant and muzzle velocity, brings to a performance improvement of 20% compared to older ammunition.
This was later revised down to 15% lol.
And there was discussion at some point about the IRL performances of the OFL120F1 itself but I don’t really remember what where the talked values
Currently overperforming a bit in WT, to a degree of about 10mm, as Gaijin overestimated the actual Tungsten penetrator length.
The top vehicles in the game are the best because of their protection levels not their mobility levels because war thunder maps have just become three lanes going straight at each other for the most part and honestly unless you are ungodly slow nobody really gets an advantage by being fast especially not a tank with a reload that makes it impossible to actually contest or use spots effectively, not to mention its lack of depression, the VT4A1 aps is funny occasionally but not really all that helpful usually as you are mostly getting shot by darts and a lot of cas elements can often just overwhelm you or kill you through it by size of explosion.
The wz1001 my personal favorite of the tanks and the only one I would consider good still lacks pretty much everything in order to have its speed, No pen, no reload, no survivability if you get shot and only okay protection, and No I don’t care you survived two kh38’s as that is an exception and not the normality with its armor, I’m not going to sit here and tell you how great the Ariete’s armor actually is because I survived a 1000 pound gbu to the forehead in it once. Chinese mbts are easily the worse mbts at top tier, and I’ve played a lot of bad tanks.
the only reason why the ariete is a little better than the wz is because or its good reload mobility and dm53
all the rest is pretty ass compared to the wz
its pretty much a big light tank
also the 5 sec reload doesnt make sense because of the tanks design
its much harder to lift a 120 mm round at waist level compared for example the abrams where the round are positioned at your chest which makes the transfer from the stowage to the breach easier
So I understand the comparison of the french shard and dm ammunition
But what the hell is an ariete wz comparison doing in the leclerc thread
Thats my point the chinese tanks suck.
Please go to DM or other related threads instead of continuing to argue on off topic vehicles please !
Going back to this for a moment.
It seems that French officials are adamant for the French tanks to keep a locally produced canon, even within the MGCS program.
I think it’s likely that, if the MGCS keeps being Franco-German, then it would feature both rheunmetal’s and KNDS canons depending on the specific variant.
KNDS was already made steps towards multi caliber compatibility with ASCALON being officially both 120 and 140mm but also claiming that 130mm could be developed if necessary. Now only the breach itself would need to be switched. It would obviously increase complexity of development, but I don’t think it’s too far fetched.
Now, this lies in the fact that MGCS sticks, which is becoming more and more improbable, since Germany will be going the Leo 2A8 and Leo 3 route most likely, while France is not planning to get intermediate vehicles aside from the Leclerc XLR, meaning their timeline don’t alike at all.
Thats what i would expect the most, so that the nato compatibility stays the same. Alone for logistic reason as well as possible export.
Leo 3/ ax or however you call it always is just supposed to be an interim vehicle as well.
It cant replace the mgcs.
While the leo hull is fantastic, we need a overhaul and newly developed one to keep up with the times.
You dont seem to be aware yet, but both
France and germany both started seperate projects besides the mgcs as well
As a even further interim until mgcs.
There is the Marte (main armored tank of europe )project made by rheinemtall and knds germany, which i personaly expect to fuse with leo 3.
And the french FMBTech .
Of course depending how it goes those just might completly replace the mgcs as well.
The French DGA isn’t actively coordinating development or wanting to spend money for an interim tank as of now. They will however in the coming weeks/months propose different plans to maybe introduce interim tanks before MGCS, but army generals are very against it, afraid that this would cost too much and cause the MGCS development to be cut down or delayed too much. They also can’t afford to keep the Leclerc till after 2040 because the power unit will be un maintainable by that time (since production is basically stopped for the engine and they are scrapping from out of service Leclercs)
Apparently, a few ideas will be proposed, among them the main one would potentially be with KNDS having a central role.
Maybe we could expect the French to go for some EMBT derivative, with a Leo hull and an improved Leclerc turret, but I truly don’t know.
There’s still independent development, such as Nexter’s Leclerc EVO which might be somewhat equivalent to a Leo 2A8/3 in principle, but the DGA has not shown any interest in it.
Edit : I would also not put too much faith in the FMBtech project. It’s lead by Thales, which while a very high tech company, is not know for making armored systems.
goddamn that thing looks straight out of planeside or some other sci fi shooter
A lot of it will be influenced by the fcas project.
Dassault is not making any Fans and straining the relations.
Germany isnt to dependend on fcas.
We can start others with sweden, spain or maybe even join british/italian/japanese programm.
But french mbt development will take a even worse split /result if that happens.
Germany is the main supplier for european tanks.
No matter if its kmw or rheinmetall
1 Like
ehhhhhh, anyway last time the first topic was mentionned it was nearly instantly removed so i won’t answer much lol.
I think it’s a lot more dependent than you think.
Germany alone doesn’t have the full industrial capabilities to produce an entire aircraft locally (in a decent timeframe and non finite budget). In the other hand, France does (tho economically it’s be a huge burden especially with their other massive projects in parallel such as the new aircraft carrier). It’s also very unlikely to join the TEMPEST program since Britain made it clear they would only be allowed to join as observers, not participants. This leaves new cooperation with Sweden and Spain for example, which would help a lot in the development but those countries don’t completely complement the German capabilities. There would still be deficiencies in the power unit - at least safran clearly states that MTU is not currently capable of producing a next gen engine (information you can take at face value) (edit : this is visibly due to NDA MTU has with their British partner on the EFT program) - and the radar, where it seems an important portion of the EFT development was done by UK, Italy, Spain.
I would actually go as far to say that purely in industrial capabilities (not mentioning economics), Germany is as dependent on the FCAS on France as France is dependent on the MGCS in Germany (since they don’t produce their own power units for tanks since the end of the Leclerc production, and the company was sold to Wassila which is a Nordic company iirc)
Never claimed that.
I think thats already changing and not mecesarily up to date anymore
Sweden does already have more in common with germany as you think. Gripen and euro share many technologies.
Never said they don’t either. I’m simply stating that as far as their combined industrial capabilities go, they still have pretty large deficiencies when it come to producing certain specific and vital components of a jet fighter. And I don’t think either country would go around buying US equipment, like Sweden does for the engine of the gripes.
Now if Germany joins GCAP (I didn’t know about theses changes from the UK), they still would have the problem of not really having many say on fundamental design choices, since I don’t expect the whole program to go through earlier phases of development, which considering the EFT program, would be unlike them to accept (France wasn’t the only country with very specific requirements at that time)
Tbh i dont really see how joining GCAP would solve Germanys workshare issues with FCAS. I dont think UK/ITA/JAP would be willing to waive their own already negotiated workshare and the general progress just to accomodate Germany.
2 Likes