No, that’s not true. The sequence diagram declares 6 for loading the adjacent projectile.
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A single source that comes directly from the manufacturer can overrule 20 sources that are secondary or tertiary.
There’s a reason why Tank Manuals are usually seen as the most authoritative source available on a given vehicle.
Spoiler
Spoiler
You’re wrong. That video doesn’t show many of the operations that occur during continuous shooting.
I’ve already written about this 10 times.
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the cyclogram is the single source declaring that, you can time it yourself. no shortage of videos.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/1mh3pkp/t64t80_autoloader/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1
Primary sources being considered more “trustworthy” will never cease to be funny when you consider the fact that they can contradict.
For example, i will use a non leclerc related vehicle :
1 year difference, same source (french MoD), different language. What is the max speed : 23 or 25 knots ? Tough decision i suppose
Note though that the one posted first has the most conservative approach to the vehicle speed
To add to this, the defense industry in Europe usually tends to undersell the capabilities of their “products” at first, MBDA Meteor, MICA VL (12km in 2012, 20km bow). I also note that one of the brochures from Ralin, then again, contradicts the other (10 round per seconds is not compatible with “redoublement du feu en en moins de 6 secondes”). For it to be correct you would have to get “Redoublement du feu en 6 secondes” and “10 rounds per minute”
or
“redoublement du feu en moins de 6 secondes” and “>10 rounds per minute”
When it comes to leclerc, the devs already stated that reload is mostly a balancing thing anyway, and even then it would seem Leclerc’s autoloader can be pushed to the 4.5-5.5s area when looking at secondary sources (while one of the primary source given by Ralin does not forbid it)
When it comes to balancing, i don’t think anyone here can argue that Leclerc represents a big balancing issue currently, like Soyuz in naval, Mi28 in helicopters or Rafale in Air RB.
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Seriously.
I don’t understand why this guy called Ralin decided to start a crusade against Leclerc all of a sudden(actually I know why but I’m not gonna start another pointless conversation with him).
GIAT;
Another GIAT Brochure;
US Army;
Le système Leclerc. FERRARD Stéphane et Gérard TURBE
GIAT submission to UK MOD;
Char Leclerc. Marc Chassillan
GIAT brochure less than but still claiming 6 seconds;
So the body of evidence is for 6 seconds. 6 out of 7 authoritative materials state 6 second reload rate and one states ‘less than’ 6. The single ‘less than’ does not erase the other 6 materials and doesn’t magically make a bunch of defence news magazines credible with their claims of 5 seconds. That’s not how evidencing works.
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Actually 2 states less than 6 seconds , GIAT brochure and Le système Leclerc. Ferrard Stéphane et Gérard Turbe.
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My apologies the 2 out of 7. Doesn’t move the needle either but thanks for the correction.
If you actually translated the entire paragraph, you’d see it does not say reloading in 6s but reloading in less than 6s
Same for this one
And then, if we were to believe that what was given to the UK MoD was all very correct, the Leclerc would barely have better armor than the AMX30. Considering how they did not want to share anything to anyone, even during most testings, I would assume that those are at best conservative estimates.
I don’t understand why you and rain keep bringing the same source with just the “6s” highlighted when the sentence literally mentions “under 6s”
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On the armour, I’m happy to concede the point, we had a solid discussion there, and DirectSupport resolved the issue by showing an image of the Leclerc at the time of submission with a clearly different armour profile. In that case, the information can be contextualized to better understand what is being presented.
That same contextualization does not apply to the reload time. Unless we are to assume that brochures from roughly 2005-2006 were still referring to a prototype vehicle while simultaneously describing it as “in production,” the comparison simply doesn’t hold.
Because these are not the only materials available. I have seven sources in total, all converging on a 6-second reload. As you noted, two of them use a “less than” qualifier, but the remaining five again, all authoritative explicitly state 6 seconds.
If we take the secondary, yet still authoritative, source Le système Leclerc by Stéphane Ferrard and Gérard Turbé, and note that it makes the same “less than 6 seconds” claim as the Leclerc brochure, it is reasonable to infer that the authors are referencing that same brochure. A secondary source is expected to cite a primary one, and in this case the origin is clear: the Leclerc brochure itself.
This does not suddenly make IDR’s, Jane’s, or the Polish defence magazines correct in claiming a 5-second reload. A reload time of 5.9 seconds would still satisfy the brochure’s wording while functionally remaining a 6-second reload.
Secondary sources do not independently divine technical figures; they must be rooted in a source of truth. Here, that source is clearly GIAT, the same GIAT documentation I have already cited support a 6-second figure.
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Another western tanks advantage bite the dust…French tax in action sad you should buff the ru tanks a bit more too
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nato tanks still outreload the T tanks
don’t matter - the way this game is going may as well just play russia
go do that then, bitching and yapping on forums wont change anything
people lose their shit every time anything russian gets added, this is no exception
oh it didnt go well for you xD
oh no numbers my arch enemy…
Well if all the primary evidence points to ~6 sec there does seem to be little leeway to argue for 5. @WaretaGarasu was the creator of the report so maybe he could have some additional insight.
If the reload does get changed to 6s the Leclerc will have even fewer reedeming qualities, but other than a armour rework (which we all know is very unlikely to happen) there doesn’t seem to be many ways to make the tank competitive among its peers. Sad, but it is what it is.
(Maybe someone in the thread is actually the Chief of the Staff of the French Army and can pull some strings to declassify a bit of info on the Leclercs? ;> )
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We need to do a deep infiltration of the general staff of the fench forces. Get an agent to make the staff fall in love with them and convince them to declassify just the leclerc autoloader system specifications.
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Well, first of all, you don’t need anything other than the primary source, because, as @Gunjob pointed out, all the others are just copies of it.
Secondly, the T-64 repair manual confirms the cyclogram data, which you are obviously not aware of.
Thirdly, the MZ can be adjusted manually, and the repair manual allows for a difference of up to 0.5 seconds in the main actions during reloading, which obviously means that in the video you can see tanks in different states and settings. In real life, no one cares whether your shell reloads in 6 or 6.3 seconds, for example.
The Leclerc video shows a reload time of 8 seconds. Should we take this value?
And finally: there are plenty of videos online showing an almost complete charging cycle taking 5.5 seconds, which means that a full cycle can be completed in 6 seconds or even slightly faster.
The video shows the time from the start of the tray rotation for one shell to the lowering of the lever.
This takes ~5.5 seconds. In fact, the video does not show the steps “pressing the MZ button” and “returning the gun to the firing angle” .
The first step does not relate to the loading mechanism at all, as it is literally a person pressing a button and can be disregarded (and it is not necessary when firing in bursts, but I don’t even want to mention that).
At the same time, if the cannon was immediately at the loading angle, the shot can be fired immediately after the 5.5-second timer ends.
you cannot start counting reload time from an already moving carousel even if you start counting one shell before it simply isnt accurate, i linked a pretty good video which starts from a standstill on a side by side reload, use that.