You do know that Nexter has posted SHARD’s general information including velocity, right? -,-
Is this what “scream louder to seem smarter” is.
And btw:
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/I9DlDXIxU79e
Even the French bug reporters acknowledge that OFL(E) F2 wouldn’t be really any better… so uh, keep yapping buddy? Surely you will arrive to a sensible answer sometime in the next 12 years, maybe.
There is no indication that either of them is wrong apart from French wishful thinking. Improving the armor beyond what’s shown in Swedish trials at next to zero cost in weight and volume is impossible even today (every other tank went up massively in weight even in 1990s to achieve their armor levels, some by as many as 5 tons, and y’all seem to be hardbent on believing the Leclerc can grow by just 500kg and have armor better than it currently does in game when Gaijin is already honestly giving it massive levels of generosity especially on the middle part of the hull lmao), even the Type 10 doesn’t achieve this despite using nano-metric ceramic steel alloys, so can we stop propagating this idea that somehow the French engineers are capable of designing magic composites? Thanks.
Yes waiter, my 580mm of composite INCLUDING the front and back steel plates can achieve 550mm RHAe KE in 1994 insert nerd emoji here, this is a fantasy. DU/tungsten armors couldn’t do that even with uber advanced NERA designs seen in the Leopard 2A5 and M1A2, but muh France.
SXII is much lower than it should be.
It uses titanium instead of regular steel on its armor.
Titanium is worse against KE than steel. It’s not nearly as dense nor hard, and the best alloys are only 0.9 as effective as normal rolled armor.
That’s not necessarily the case. There are several reasons: firstly, during some iteration of the prototype production process, at least those immediately preceding the start of mass production must be completely representative of the production model. In other words, if the prototypes are from dates close to the start of mass production, then they must be representative of the capabilities of the production model. In this case, the Leclerc tank began its mass production in 1991. Therefore, both sources from 1991 and 1994, if they refer to prototype versions, must be those representative of the production model.
On the other hand, even if the sources referred to a non-final prototype, as you are suggesting without evidence, the only ways the armor would be different from the production model would be either that the prototype armor does not meet the requirements or that these change during the development process. However, the sources themselves do not explicitly refer to any prototype; instead, they refer to the representative protection levels required.
For all the reasons mentioned above, the protection level of 420 KE is the protection level of the first production model of Leclerc, and it is the only value taken from publicly known authoritative sources at the moment.
How do you know that?
As far as I know pre production model is lighter than serial version which indicates why Sweden said production hasn’t matured yet on their report.
It’s reinforced with titanium, not just titanium…
Swedish trials took place in 1993-1994. By then, Leclerc serial production had already started. So the armor tested was 100 percent what was being produced at the time.
That’s the sources used by the people who know vastly more about the Leclerc than you do and actually do reports about so idrc, you seem very emotional tho.
And you should know that the muzzle velocity of a shell depend also about the barrel use, like that just having the velocity do not says a lot about the shell
Irrelevant. We’re talking about its stats out of the Leclerc’s L/52 cannon.
You also said that the shard was as the same level as the DM63A1, like you knew a lot about things that are for now unknow, you cant compare things that you dont know.
We have photos of the shell in flight it’s easy to estimate it…
The first dm63A1 command was around 2015, for the shard its around 2023, the fact that you say those two shell with 8 years of difference are on the same level without knowing anything about them is quit funny.
DM63A1 is still the same as the DM63 from 2005 and DM53 from 1998 so yeah.
Anyhow, you done coping or? Cus I kinda don’t wanna waste me time anymore on a le freunch dooode who thinks more with his feelings than his brain ngl.
The vehicle that sent wasn’t production version tho.
Either case if it was a pre production sample (ie. still representative of the production configuration) or serial production (likely because we are 3 years into production start), it was equipped with armor at least as capable as required. Otherwise they were sending a bid with inferior characteristics on purpose to a trial they wanted to win…doesn´t make sense when you think it twice.
Or they weren’t on time, that could also be an other explanation.
Not that i would know of the leclerc’s internal (as nobody on that forum really knows, and if they do they won’t really tell) but the 3 leclercs sitting at the same BR in the tree is still quite sad to see
With the tank with its intended armor being in serial production for 3 years already? No.
On that we can agree.
S1 armor was indeed meant to be in the 450s mm area all around if i remember correctly, the issue is that it’s very inconsistent currently, with the middle plate being 550 and the upper plate being 200-300. Saying it’s overperforming is an oversimplification of its current state.
420 mm to be precise. Though yes, the fact that every single pixel widly varies in KE performance is a general issue of the game for most if not all tanks. But in general from 20-30 deg its front armor is overperforming significantly, both turret and hull.
Nah, i mean it’s this whole area :
A bit more than a few pixel. And it’s quite impactful too as it offers large weakspots for some autocanons to go through (namely 2S38 and HSTV-L). Fixing it would make the hull imprevious to small caliber guns but weaker to MBT rounds on the bottom.
damn how someone can be so pathetic, congrat you are great at something. Why are you talking about the leclerc when im talking about the ofle 120 F2 itself ? dont know what to say ?
we are not talking about the gun of the leclerc, to do a fair comparaison about shell we should in this case use the same barrel as reference big brain, we are talking about the shell not about the gun got it ?
so for you, having photo of a shell in flight alow to estimate the performance of the whole shell ? including the materials inside the shell ? you are talking about shell like it was just a piece of metal and nothing more, like you could know everything just looking at it
and what the hell are feeling doing there you are in another world damn, take care of ys bro
so for you, a document saying that they have no confidential knowledge about the armor of the leclerc, means the leclerc has no armor ? everything write in a poor newpaper ? damn you fly high
First, to answer about the OFL 120 F1 and OFL 120 F2:
As seen in this screenshot, the manufacturer of the French APFSDS claims better penetration for the DU shell as well
The only shell that would bring better penetration is the Shard. There have been attempts to find enough information to use the LO formula, and I believe some people have estimated it in the game at around 650mm plus or minus 20mm.
The armour of the Leclerc is another discussion.
The Leclerc tested in the Swedish trials didn’t use the final production armour. In fact, when the French army received their first Leclerc in 1991, they weren’t impressed with its armour either. GIAT had to make some changes: transmission had some issues, reliability, and armour as well. The Leclerc used in the Swedish trials is a tranche 1 or 2. The French in-service Leclerc received the S1OP package by the time they entered service in 1997, which is basically an S2 without the A/C.
As for the S2 armour, it has received some extra thickness, which isn’t represented in the game on the turret, meaning that all Leclercs are underperforming here. This is clearly visible when looking at pictures.
For the hull armour, the 420mm value was taken from a trial that did not actually test the armor (only the Swedish trials did any testing on them, and from those trials, only the turret armor leaked). It could very well be a low estimate. I am not sure that the armor testbed Leclerc was already tested at that point. The one known thing is that the Leclerc was tested against its own ammo (range and actual testing conditions are unknown), and armour should at least be able to defeat it at a reasonable range (let’s say under 1-2km), meaning it should be protected to around 500-550mm at least, and as what was found during the Swedish turret trials, which also happens to at least prove that the 420mm from the British trials were at least a low estimate, or simply that armour improvements did happen between the prototype that was tested by the British. Also it is to note the Swedish did not consider an armor upgrade of the hull necessary, and their requirements are known
As for chemical armour, a UAE Leclerc (that uses an S2-derived package) was hit by a Kornet, which was stopped after penetrating a fuel tank (another ATGM did kill the driver, which shows that there is a weakspot on the driver side). In game a kornet would achieve full penetration if not actually over pressure the tank by hitting the UFP. The thing is, whether we believe this or not, the upper front plate is massively underperforming, and armoring from 420 to 550 wouldn’t save it from top-tier rounds but at least make it resistant to autocannons, HSTVL, and 2S38. but, as it always goes with the Leclerc, there is insufficient evidence for the actual effectiveness of the S2 and later armour packs. For example, the S21 turret is claimed to be able to withstand « next-generation APFSDS, » but good luck arguing with that.
As for the titanium add-ons, some things are claimed: The Leclerc S1 hull features titanium (probably for the fuel tanks lining), and some claims made by Marc Chassillan, who is currently considered a secondary source (since he often gets things right, but also sometimes isn’t completely correct, such as for the turret rotation speed).
As for the often found argumentation of “composite can’t have better than 1 KE coefficient, hence Leclerc can’t have decent KE protection” : In the late 1990s, France and the USA cooperated on high-density ceramics which demonstrated that they could obtain a KE effectiveness of over 2 for the same weight as RHA, when tested against APFSDS. This was likely used on SXXI. But then again, there’s a missing link that would allow to confirm this completely
Thanks Mulatu for the different elements give (Swedish trials, Ceramic testing, S1OP configuration…)
DM53 is underperforming because its density is currently too low but I have no way of proving it via public documentation, and I’d rather not get nuked lol.
OFL F1 is correct tho, even slightly overperforming because its penetrator is shorter than Gaijin predicted, they’re counting a part of the interior steel tip as part of the WHA rod.
As for chemical armour, a UAE Leclerc (that uses an S2-derived package) was hit by a Kornet, which was stopped after penetrating a fuel tank
The fact it PENETRATED the fuel tank means it went through the armor, that’s not protection against the Kornet, that’s being lucky that the massive fuel tank managed to disperse the jet enough that it didn’t cause any catastrophic damage.
As for the often found argumentation of “composite can’t have better than 1 KE coefficient, hence Leclerc can’t have decent KE protection” : In the late 1990s, France and the USA cooperated on high-density ceramics which demonstrated that they could obtain a KE effectiveness of over 2 for the same weight as RHA, when tested against APFSDS. This was likely used on SXXI. But then again, there’s a missing link that would allow to confirm this completely
I had Mulatu use the exact same argument on discord against me but all this prove is that there is maybe a specific single layer that has high KE coefficient, not that the whole armor block does.
Armors are made up of more than a single layer, they have to balance protection, ceramics are also typically insanely brittle, even the modern ones, making a composite out of only ceramics would mean the French Army would have to replace the armor box every single time a tank is hit making it completely unsustainable and frankly pointless as tanks are meant to remain in combat for long periods of time.
It’s a false cause fallacy bro.
One of the best toptier lineups with the best cas plane, clearly needs a buff.
Maybe Nexter shouldnt have build absolutely middery :)
Maybe with their 140mm gun they finally manage to beat DM53s penetration.
One can only hope
Didn’t go through the fuel tank, while in game it will do it 100% of the time, if it didn’t already overpressured
Well, on this aspect I can share an anecdote I was told : The French army discovered at some point that the armor lost insane effectiveness values. They searched for the reason and found out that operators used the edge of the armor as a can opener, which caused degradation to the armor. This could be attributed to the fact that the Leclerc uses more dense Ceramics than other composite layouts. This would also correlate to the fact that the Leclerc is 1m shorter and yet about as heavy as the M1 and Leo 2 configurations of the 2000s (leopard 2A5, M1), with a smaller crew compartment, meaning that they had to put all that weight somewhere, and yet its currently less armored in most aspects compared to those 2
Again, I’m not saying this is definitely proof, or this would have already been reported ages ago
The rafale is indeed very strong. Are the Leclerc’s better than “mid”? I would not say so. They are definitely not bad, but could definitely benefit from substantial buffs, like half of top tier vehicles (Merkava, Ariete, Challengers…). The whole GRB game mode should not revolve around having to have an insane CAS lineup to make up for the mid ground vehicles.
Also I was not talking about the need to buff them specifically. This is also for people that wish to know more about the Leclerc as a vehicle instead of saying “OFL 120 F1 bad, we need F2”
And this tells me that you are just here for the rage baiting
You’ve already polluted the Rafale thread enough with the rage baiting, can you not start here ?
