The Iron dome meta

Game Discussion Simulator Battle
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430

I do not want to kill the accessibility to play a game but being 100% honest. Simulator battles should have harder control of the aircraft, trimming, radars, aircraft control, etc. because it calls sim, so it should be closer to real life than monkey smashing mouse and keyboard but yes. it should not be allowed. I am prepared for a hate after this post :D. 1st rule of all - Simulator battles should force you to use controllers and more complicated aircraft control.

Also I can see a “cry” that they cannot move a camera properly… rly? I did my first IR tracker by myself, calculates resistor, bought IR diodes and grind it by myself on a knee for better angles and I used my lighter to solder it all together to my hat. Bought shitty ps3eye and removed IR filter by myself. Got floppy disk and cut a small round to replace ir filter to make it darker and better response for IR diode.

Sorry for that but really “meta” exist because of simplified operations of aircraft systems. Solution is super simple but it will also kill the sim player base. Do not need to “fix” the things ppl do not know how it really works. Just cut the acces for “easy” playstyle and it is done. Then with small steps game could be upgraded because when devs will try to fix “meta” at this state i do not really see it will be better for a game.

2 Likes
431

Controls-wise, unless using Simplified mousejoy MnK does not simplify control inputs.

The only simplification is that it’s easier to input precise deflections of pitch and roll (or rudder) and hold those exact deflections.

Simplified is weird and shouldn’t exist. Not even because it gives an advantage but the inverse: it creates false first impressions and makes people thinkg Mouse & keyboard is limited away from doing loops and inversions.

Legitimately, setting your controls to “mousejoy” in Warthunder is functionally equivalent to playing around with vJoy and vController to set up a driver that hijacks mouse inputs and translates them to a virtual flight stick’s y and x movements.

I use the vJoy/vController trickery to fly in Il2: great battles.

Rudder is annoying to set up. You have 2 options:

  1. Option 1 that I saw some more skilled people than I use: X axis deflection of mouse corresponds to rudder pedal inputs and then use Q and E to controll roll.
  2. Option 2 is …

In Il2:GB

image

Pressing Q increments rudder in “left-hand” direction by 0.5% instantenously then for every unit time held, it increments by 0.05% on top. Pressing E accumulates in the opposite direction. Pressing 2 “lifts your feet” from the virtual rudder and resets to neutral.

(these values are for linear response in the P-51B and P-47D22. 109s need different values that I forgot).

The MMB press there corresponds to letting go of the stick.

In Warthunder:

Same idea, except we change the sensitivities to make Q and E give ~5% deflection for a very quick press and a very fast accumulation when held. This allows us to use Q and E to use the rudder to assist rolling, to prevent stalls and to kick the rudder for hammerheads.

Since this removes precise control for coordinating flight, we then bind MOUSEWHEEL (I’d do it for Il2 but vJoy doesn’t let me do stupid stuff like tab+mousewheel and ½+mousewheel so I’d lose mousewheel for trim and zoom) to increment/decrement rudder by 1.5% (same sensitivity controls both so it’s a bit of a trial and error).

This lets us minimize or angle of slip by…

We want to do left hand turn.

  1. Tap Q twice
  2. Roll into the turn and pull up
  3. Eyes on the ball or the Angle of Slip read-out for WTRTI
  4. Roll mousewheel to center the ball.

Then we want to reverse into right-hand.

  1. Tap 2 to reset rudder to trim value
  2. tap E twice
  3. Roll right
  4. Eyes on ball/slip
  5. Roll mousewheel to center the ball.

It’s a messed up thing you can easily forget while overwhelmed, but it works. I often forget my rudder at like -20% once I start panicking.

As for camera controls…

CAMERA

  • WASD to turn head. (A-D x axis, W-S y axis)
  • 1, 3 to lean left/right.
  • TAB+W/S to lean forward/back
  • RMB to raise head, TAB+RMB to lower head.
  • 4 to instantly look back
  • ½+mouse wheel to zoom in quickly/reset zoom
  • Z to zoom in quickly/reset zoom
  • V to zoom out quickly
  • X to reset to gunsight.

I find that these camera controls on mouse and keyboard give quite decent situational awareness even in prop tier furballs. No headtracking or VR needed.

Purpose of this post: Contest the idea that MnK get simplified control of the aircraft
Purpose of this post 2: Contest the idea of MnK users citing lack of TrackIR/VR headset as a reason for not dogfighting or sth.

432

I fully understand that, however talking about top tier jets you can control you radar by simply clicking a target on a radar and done, easy job. fire missile, change target in 0.5s, fire missile. Easy to target multiple target which are close to each other. Using controller or anything to operate X Y axis and the elevation of a radar, manually move a cursor on radar will take a time sometimes you just overshoot cursor and make a correction, you can not move cursor from long range to close range just in a second, using X Y axis to move cursor on the radar will take more time than a second.

According to control/flying it i know there are software that can easily emulate anything to anything and I truly know everything I just said is more like “blocking” acces for an incoming player base but not existed one, because they will be fine and adapt to a new situation or just leave.

433

I highly doubt we’ll get accurate RCS-based modeling since Gaijin so far is still giving stealth no mind at all due to there being too few platforms or munitions that make use of said feature.

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434

Modern cockpits are designed to be ergonomic for pilots.

The fact that I own a good HOTAS and can easily control radar due to my control set-up allows me to iron dome. So I should have massive advantage beyond what I already do by limiting mouse and keyboard players to sort of approximate the ergonomics that I already have?

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435

I mean, you can do Iron Dome in keyboard and mouse just fine, it just really depends on how you wanna set your binds.

For example, I used to have “numpad 1/2/3/5” to move the radar cue, and later changed it to “right click” + “WASD” to move the radar cue.

I think that the ones that would have it hardest are controller players, but even then I’ve found the controller setup for radar binds to be quite comfortable if you tweak it yourself.

Idk, I still hate the Iron Dome meta lol.

436

I find that using the same buttons for normal control surface actuation and to add incrementally/trim just makes for a mess when you don’t want it to, you need a seperate combinations. I understand that many players simply play using keyboard keys and keep the mouse in relative control for fine tuning their aim, but i find that mouse joystick in standard mode (not simplified mode, that just works worse) can actually work very nicely as you can actually be really precise with the elevator and aileron inputs and it won’t restrict certain manoeuvres like mouse aim does. For turn coordination you simply adjust the rudder percentage according to the plane you’ll be flying, although i find that 100% aileron/20% rudder is a decent generic value, and jets equipped with SAS won’t need turn coordination at all in damping mode.

As for mouse controlling the radar hud, honestly i don’t see why disabling this feature in sim would be a dealbreaker. It was only introduced recently, it’s not something possible for pilots in real life since they have to keep their hands on the controls, and it’s not like controlling the radar with keyboard is particularly difficult or that different from using a joystick with a hat switch.

437

Nah, just award the J out as the kill to the launcher, or to the hostile fellow within sight range.
Forcing the fellow out should be considered as kill, to reduce the frustration.
A lost plane is a lost plane, even if it wasn’t directly tied to the combat loss.

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438

Again.

Rudder:

Q and E inputs around 5% and increments fast.

Mousewheel adds 1.5%

Tab+ mousewheel is trim (1%)

Cursor keys are trim (5%) (mostly for dive recovery)

Mouse movement itself is analogous to a zeeo length stick (move to side and roll, move forward to pitch down)

It is a standard mousejoy not relative control. Combining roll and rudder limits you too much imo (can’t use rudder to kick yourself over, can’t use rudder to forward slip, can’t use rudder to recover spins).

One thing I did see others use (Rex, Steve_i400) was to make mousejoy x axis into rudder 100% and move roll to Q and E citing: “In props you want to counteract your prop intertia by applying -% rudder otherwise you losing turnrate, on horizontal turns it’s anywhere from 4 to 14% and similar on vertical once you get familiar with how it works. That’s why having precise rudder is way more important than having precise roll”)

I’ll stick with my rudder on Q/E and mousewheel as that’s what got internalized already and works pretty nicely.

It is mainly optimized for 109 F-4 in rudder sensitivities. Here, see for yourself: https://live.warthunder.com/post/1165655/en/

439

I’d disagree on that last point personally. It’s not entirely because of iron dome, though it does play a part, its just because blue’s most prominent member, the US, doesn’t have any counters to the Eurofighters or SM2’s where they can just sit in the notch and fire off missiles.

All it takes in an even game is for one person to leave, then another will follow, then another, until you’re left with one or two people and it’s no longer fun for either team.

I don’t think gaijin understands how strong these ±90 degree radars are, couple that with better flight flight performance at higher speeds that the reds have currently and there’s just not much you can do.

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440
  1. you cant sit in a notch and fire in eurofighters
  2. blue has eurofighters

it’s not an aircraft problem.

441

People were saying the same thing about Gripen when it was added and obliterated everything.

F-15 and F-16 are decisively worse for PvP than basically everything else at top tier from flight model perspective.

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442

and yet blue still has eurofighters

443

1 Eurofighter on a team isn’t going to offset Su-30SM2 spam.

444

has nothing to do with the airplane though

445

Team composition matters.
Your solution to USA planes being poor is to just not play them. It’s not really a good one.

446

team composition matters. yes.
both sides have eurofighters. so there is no issue in team composition.

USA planes being “poor” is not a team composition problem.

and just because they can’t do a 90deg HOBS shot doesnt make them bad. they aren’t bad. F-15GE is excellent.

there is no solution for that. ask lockheed or boeing to make a new gen4++ or something and tell the USA to change their doctrine from BVR to WVR.

447

yeah at iron doming and nothing else
dog water fm, dog water missiles, mid radar

448

1 Eurofighter + 8 F-15C is not equal to 9 Su-30 SM2. This is not a hard concept to understand. This is no different than US mains telling USSR mains to cope during F-15C meta spam because they could have Japan on their team.

The F-15C GE is not excellent. It’s so not excellent that the recommendation of how to play it from experienced sim player is to run to the airfield or use it as Golden Dome.

WarThunder Air Sim is not a realistic representation of BVR combat in the slightest. So this is also a moot point.

3 Likes
449

Some clips… in like 30 minutes

Spoiler

Watch Ahh yes Iron Dome | Streamable
Watch iron Dome part 2 | Streamable
Watch iron Dome part 3 | Streamable