The ground battle CAS issue, and how people not knowing how to play SPAA adds onto it, by a lot!


Disclaimer!

I understand that this topic is rather controversial (and rightfully so!) So I remind you all to try to stay on topic with the main point of this thread! That being the player aspect of this issue which I wish to bring forth to discussion with this thread! I would also like to remind you all to stay civil, and read what I have to say before you reply. Thank you, and I hope this thread opens healthy discussion regarding the topic!

Intro
The CAS issue. Is there anything as contentious as that? I don’t think there is. While this is an issue that will continue being debated until the ends of time, as Gaijin continues to ignore discourse regarding it; doing as they wish — we players are left to make what we can of the situation. At least Gaijin is kind enough to provide us with AA, the effectiveness of which is questionable at times. (May god save Japan still not having a radar based AA at top tier…)

Not to mention the other weird choices they decided to take when modeling radar based AA, instead of missiles functioning like they do in air RB, where they work based on a lock; missiles function more like ATGMs. While sure, this leads to the strangely beneficial scenario where missiles fired by SPAA can practically ignore something the multi-pathing effect. especially when firing at helicopters hiding behind trees and such. But this is a discussion for another day.

But this leads us to our next point. The gameplay loop of top radar SPAA seems rather simple, and boring. Simply staring at your radar screen, and firing missiles. Is this all there is to it? The answer is: no! There’s a lot more to it. Which leads us to my main point!

Genuine skill issue on part of players
]You see, as a ground player first; and air player second there is something I have noticed now that I have tipped my toe into the power of 4th gen aircraft. People do not know how to play top-tier AA. I mean it.

The amount of times I’ve gotten easy kills on SPAA who for some reason decide that their best course of action is to stay idle in spawn, simply staring at their radar screen for contacts; instead of, I dunno, positioning themselves in say, a forest? Or behind solid cover, such as a building? I tell you, next time you play a strike aircraft with a good targeting pod, simply observe what the enemy AA does. I guarantee with 90% certainty that what most AA will do is simply sit in spawn.

In my opinion, this compounds the issue where CAS is extremely powerful and I do not think it is unreasonable to assume that players playing poorly somehow contributes to this. So, what can we do? I am glad you asked.

Countering planes properly utilizing radar based SPAA
It is my opinion that one needs to make do with the cards they are dealt, and this is one of these examples. So what can you really do against planes? How do you play radar based SPAA properly? In my opinion the “correct” way to play SPAA can be summarized through this helpful acronym.

Positioning, Radar, Deployment, Firing (PRDF)
So what does this encompass? Refer to below!

1. Positioning

It goes without saying that positioning is important no matter what mode one plays in War Thunder. It is incredibly important in SPAA, as simply sitting still presents you as way too easy of a target. So, simply find positions that provide you with an advantage. Be it concealment, solid cover, unexpected angles of attack; the list goes on and only your imagination is practically the limit. Which sends us to our next issue.

2. Radar

So you’ve positioned yourself in a wooded area with nice concealment, what now? You have your radar, which you can use to see where enemies may be. But you may soon realize that the enemy knows where you are, because you have your radar on constantly. So, how about we ration our use of radar? Turn it on every 30 seconds to see if you see people, and if you don’t; turn it off. You have optics too after all. But oh no! You left your radar on for too long, and now there’s a plane hunting you. What now!?

3. Deployment

But you suddenly remember you are a self-propelled anti-air system! You can move under your own propulsion! You can simply redeploy yourself to another position. And if you’re lucky, you might have smoke grenades to confuse the plane hunting you. So you move to a new position, what now?

4. Firing

So you’re now at a new position, you turn on your radar and see that the plane which was hunting you is heading for your previous position and is only 10km away! Bingo, that’s a firing solution that anyone can dream of. You lock on, and fire… It’s a hit! The poor sod who was after you didn’t even realize you redeployed, and you get the easiest plane kill of your life while he was struggling to figure out just where you had gone. This is a heavily wooded area after all! Good work!

Now, while this example is highly idealistic and doesn’t account for things such as enemy tanks coming over, it gives a general idea as to what you should be doing. I won’t lie, when SPAA is played properly, it can be extremely fun. If principles of PRDF are followed, it becomes like a game of cat-and-mouse between the SPAAG and CAS plane in question.

A game of wits, where the one who outsmarts the other wins. Because I assure you, the skill issue isn’t one sided. It’s just that playing planes wrong is a lot harder with guided ordnance currently. I myself have around 344 air kills racked up on my OTOMATIC (a notoriously, and by all regards, crap SPAAG compared to others) by simply following principles of PRDF when playing it.

How this compounds the CAS issue
If you recall to the past few matches you did at top tier where air was involved, how many players do you recall spawning in radar SPAA only to die almost instantly to a guided weapon because they didn’t move an inch from spawn? For me this happens quite often. And I now present you all with a question now, in the form of a poll.

In the last match you recall your friendly SPAA getting stomped, would steps presented by PRDF have helped the situation and made CAS less oppressive in that match?
  • Yes.
  • No.
  • Unsure. (Other factors affected the performance of friendly SPAA)
0 voters

(Edit) Feel free to write as to why you voted which option.

The part Gaijin plays in this
As stated before, the modeling of SPAA is a topic for another time. But Gaijin really does not try to teach players much in the ways of advanced topics such as this. I am not even sure if they tell you in-game if radar makes you visible to RWR. Though feel free to correct me on this if this is wrong. Gaijin should in general teach people positioning, or at the least give them the tools to easily figure these things on their own. Making custom battles is rather cumbersome, so exploring maps is rather hard.

A simple tutorial on basic radar SPAA tactics when players unlock it would help a lot. Something as simple as the examples I gave in PRDF would give players a very good idea of what they should do to avoid becoming easy food for CAS.

And this is the one thing where I myself am willing to be firebrand about. I absolutely believe it is Gaijin’s responsibility to teach players how to play their game, it should not fall on us.

Conclusion
With this, I conclude the main part of this thread. I do not believe my arguments are unreasonable, and I hope that some people find help in playing SPAA using the info in this thread. That is all. I would also like to say before closing, that I do not think CAS should be removed, but I do think it is very strong at the moment. So keep that in mind before you write a comment fueled by nothing but vitriol towards my arguments. As I said at the start; let’s keep this civil! Thank you.

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I agree with your thinking that player skill is very important in the success of SPAA, and that it’s a contributing factor to the strength of SPAA. I would like to clarify/argue (depending on your views), that CAS is not overly strong except for at top tier. In fact, I think CAS is weak at many BRs, especially around the BR of gun radar SPAAs such as Gepard. Or mid tier, where powerful SPAA such as M53/59 exist.

I also disagree with your view that Gaijin should be responsible for player education. This is a big game, and it has a huge community. There is a wealth of accurate and up-to-date information online about every topic imaginable in the game. I see no point for official guidance, what we really need is official parameters lists so dataminers don’t need to work as hard. Reminder that employees or work hours used to create player education are paid for by Gaijin, or ultimately, the players.
It should be common sense to search online for community-created guides when in need of knowledge about how to play the game. Everybody who can play War Thunder has access to internet and such resources.
Moreover, I think you underestimate the quality of the education resources created by the community of War Thunder. There are many great WT content creators that rely on producing such education for their channels. There exists no problem in player education, because information is readily available to players in the form of community-created content. In fact, the bad players themselves are to blame for their lack of interest in education.

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player skill issue with SPAA doesnt help. But a missile fired by a typhoon or SU from 20km away just isn’t fair at all

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What missiles does the typhoon get that have 20km range? The only way brimstones will hit from 20km is if you are going extremely fast and are extremely high.

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I get the consensus that players should search for information on their own being somewhat common sense, and I am well aware how good community resources are; but the issue is that they aren’t available in the game.

The thing is it doesn’t matter how much good information is out there, if it is locked behind the wall of the player having to find that information themselves. There is a lot of good community information, but there is equally bad information present on the internet. It’s the process of weeding out the bad information from the actually worthwhile sources that filters out most people in my eyes. Many people simply also do not have the time to spend time researching game mechanics that Gaijin should explain directly to players in-game.

It is in my opinion the developer’s responsibility to educate the player base, or at least point them towards a direction where they may find something that can help them. The key reason why I believe this, is because War Thunder is such a mechanically complex game. This game isn’t something you can simply pick up overnight, and Gaijin should understand that.

The encyclopedia is an example of a good way to provide information, but it has not been updated in ages. But I do agree that some more complex concepts such as positioning are hard to teach directly, but as I said in my post; Gaijin should provide players with an easy way to learn these things.

Ultimately, I think a basic tutorial for radar SPAAG would be good enough in this scenario. Working with content creators would also help. Endorsing/leading players to verified sources of information would help a lot, because it would eliminate the work-load off the player from having to find proper sources themselves and thus making the learning process much more accessible to people who may not have that much time.

Anyway, thanks for taking part in this conversation!

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the real problem SPAA faces is playing on the same map as tanks

The only way to move out of spawn is by spawning the AA first, otherwise some tanks might have LOS on your spawn, or some jets might be already up

If you are in a predictible location, turning the radar off is an excellent way to get killed. Best solution in this scenario is smoke, or prepare to intercept any AGM thrown at you.

SPAA at top tier just isn’t fit for those far too small maps : you are very limited in movement and are therefore easy to find

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Even at low tier it’s an issue when your SPAA can’t engage tanks, because it forces you to stay in your spawn, which makes it easy to be killed.

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imo SPAA just isn’t fun at all, I use it to delete anti-fun CAS degens so I could have fun with my ground vehicles, if they are ineffective trash I would just leave the match without respawning after my mbt is killed by them

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If you’re going to preach, at least show us some examples.
Most maps are just too small for bus-sized AAs to hide from both ground and air units properly.

Forests go both ways in providing cover, as they can break your LoS as well.

Enemy plane only needs a single RWR ping to know you’re there, rationing your radar use won’t help there.

Let’s not forget our maps are really small for the top tier environment, so moving 100-200m in one direction isn’t fooling anyone.

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One step forward and tanks close upon, One step sideways and be in open fields, One step backwards and red countdown…

Agreed that for 9.3-10.x SPAA too strong

For 11.7 SPAA,., 10.7 planes will face them, e.g. jaguar with mk13 who can barely stay 12km. They can severely limit, if not ‘delete’ wrt f4e, all non-top CAS with the 12km dead zone, though uptiered paveways still cost high rp.
Then a bit higher the capability, f111f is able to shot mavs out of their range… and 0.3br higher is the pantsir…

Things are too compressed and open small map made range over essential. Mav B gets a 6km dead zone, countered by 12km AAA, countered by 20km Mav D, Shot by pantsir, Then everyone including CAP is countered till GNSS-laser assault…

I actually have another strange idea about the logic of SPAA vs CAS, for 9.x-10.x cas status
Gaijin made CAS too strong- SPAA exists- issues with map skill etc so stats bad- SPAA buffed to too strong- less avg skilled planes- less SPAA spawned due to no planes to hunt- the skilled planes left slaughter- Crying more for better AAA

For top tier, bruh, One step into 12km= dead zone, One step out of 12km= no suppression… fr who designed this?

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If youre not doing strikes from orbit with the typhoon idk what you’re doing tbh

Point on map, stay low, throw from afar, pop up in the last few secs to laser guide so pantsir won’t have the time to shoot?

You can fly higher and further than pantsir can reach

WT missiles are not affected by gravity while low drag made them even better

No ordinance except pure GNSS can lock beyond 20km

This one’s true, with the energy and mobility it can reach a bit more closer and shake off pantsir when attacking

I have a radical idea that fixes top Tier CAS and SPAA problems for everyone but we know GJ wont do it, I’ll share my idea but I know it wont happen.

Limit all SPAA missle range to 6.4miles ( 10km ) Yes I know some SPAA’s don’t currently have 6.4miles range but thats fine and can be kept that way.
Limit all A2G weapons that are lazor / GNSS / IR guided weapons to 6.4miles ( 10km ) Or at very least make it so none can be locked until within 6.4miles.

This way if you wanna play CAS your forced into SPAA range and if you want to play SPAA then CAS is forced into your range. Then let skill based game play decide if your getting kills in CAS or getting killed by SPAA.

Until GJ adds comparable SPAA to all nations like RU have ( Pansir ) then I think this would be the best step.
Lets not talk about historical accuracy either since GJ picks and chooses when it favours this idea and when its fine ( Example been the Brimestone not been allowed to have FnF but the Kh-38MT is just fine 0.o )

Worth perhaps mentioning that even when you do spawn AA, the rewards are not all that great for shooting down the planes.

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At least for the Non-Russian High/Top-Tier SPAA the “realistic control” mode is severely limiting the capabilities as well.

You need to lead the missile but you get no guidance on that and with no visual depth it’s a guessing game to begin with.

In addition, at more than 6km distance the missile becomes prerty much uncontrollable if the target maneuvers.
So that’s still good for Strike Drones and some helicopters, but nothing else.

And in addition, some targets, say a KA-52, needs often 2 hits with the VT-1 to go down, which is why I started to bring the ASRAD out again, because it can single shot all helicopters.

All in all, the fact that people buy a premium for top tier and have no SPAA is making the situation bad and the sorry state of the SPAAs we have even worsens the situation more.

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Which is something people LOVE to ignore. SPAA doesn’t just have to contend with CAS, but also tanks. Many maps are incredibly small, so for CAS it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. Many maps are also incredibly open and have little cover. Both against CAS and tanks wanting an easy kill.

A good SPAA player needs more awareness than a CAS one. Dodging enemy tanks, keeping line of sights both theirs and on them in mind, actually spotting and guiding missiles while CAS increasingly gets FAF.

I do enjoy CAS folks trying to lecture everyone else on how to be “better”.

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Yep, which is odd to say the least. Arguably SPAA are having the hardest time. Many either can’t engage ground targets or are at a disadvantage, they’re also dealing with them in very close quarters. While simultaneously having to deal with CAS that arguably also has the advantage against them.

Yet they seem to get less score and so on than the other two groups.

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red is reserved for mods. i suggest changing it b4 they notice

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