The best WW2 tank ever made by a minor nation: Hungary's 44M Tas

[Victory_799-psn]

Can you elaborate on this? How do you know where it was tested?

[Drevniy_russ]

Well, tas must have 173 mm of penetration, not 156. And what’s the type of Explosives dies it have?

[Ghostmaxi]

Maybe, you could write that in english? Cince this is the english part of the forum?

[ChieftainWarrior]

Just translate it:

@Dzsigolo_Lanty

Based on the early plans, the heavy tank was intended to be equipped with an 80 mm gun, which is also confirmed by counting down the photos of the metal model. In 1943, Hungary only had the 8 cm 29/38.M Bofors L/48 anti-aircraft gun manufactured by DIMÁVAG, based on the 1943 plans, only this gun could be considered for conversion into a tank gun. The cannon fired the anti-tank grenades with an initial velocity of 750 m/s, and its muzzle energy was 229 mt. Fortunately, the anti-tank data of the 8 cm 29/35.M armor-piercing grenade (APHEBC-T) has survived, which can be compared with the legendary German 8.8 cm FlaK 36 anti-aircraft gun.

Hungarian 8 cm 29/38.M Bofors L/48 anti-aircraft gun, 29/35.M anti-tank grenade (8 kg)

Initial speed: 750 m/s

100 meters - 83 mm - 60°

500 meters - 77 mm - 60°

1000 meters - 70 mm - 60°

4200 meters – 50 mm – 60°

5300 meters – 40 mm – 60°

German 8.8 cm FlaK 36 L/56, Pzgr.Patr.

Starting speed: ?

100 meters - 98 mm - 90°

1500 meters - 78 mm - 90°

German 8.8 cm FlaK 36 L/56, Pzgr.Patr.39

Initial speed: 773 m/s

100 meters – 128 mm – 90°

1500 meters - 97 mm - 90°

It can be seen that the values ​​of the Hungarian and German cannons are almost identical, the German FlaK 36 exceeded the armor-piercing values ​​of the Hungarian cannon only with its new Pzgr.Patr.39 type ammunition, which it also fired with a higher initial velocity. However, we can get a more accurate picture of the armor penetration data of the 29/38.M Bofors gun if we compare it with the values ​​of the German 7.5 cm KwK 40 tank gun, which was fired with the same initial velocity by the Pz.Gr. 39 anti-tank grenades and its anti-tank values ​​are almost identical to those of the Hungarian cannon.

German 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43, Pz.Gr. 39 (6.8 kg)*

Initial speed: 750 m/s

100 m - 85 mm - 60° 100 m - 113 mm - 90°

500 m - 76 mm - 60° 500 m - 101 mm - 90°

1000 m - 66 mm - 60° 1000 m - 88 mm - 90°

In 1942, based on the previous war experiences, the HTI began to experiment with an 80 mm slot cannon, with which they wanted to destroy enemy concrete bunkers. According to the basic idea, the 8 cm tube would have been regularized for the 15 cm 31.M howitzer and the operating personnel would have changed the tubes according to the task. For the experiments, an 8 cm 29.M Bofors anti-aircraft gun barrel was placed in a 15 cm 14.M howitzer frame. In a total of 4 months, the barrel and the locking mechanism were modified according to the task, which also involved an increase in the caliber length, from L/48 caliber to L/70 caliber. This meant an extension of 1760 mm. During the shots, the new cannon was strong enough to shoot through 80 cm of concrete, and the initial velocity of the projectile was changed from the original 750 m/s to 950 m/s. However, the slot gun remained in the experimental stage, for reasons still unknown - there were probably no more Soviet concrete fortifications to use it against - in any case, this gun would have been an excellent starting point for both an 8 cm anti-tank gun and a tank gun for development. The latter did not happen for unknown reasons.

Although the armor-piercing data of the slot gun has not survived, we can conclude from the extremely similar armor-piercing values ​​of the Hungarian 8 cm 29/38.M Bofors L/48 anti-aircraft gun and the German 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 tank gun. that the slot gun is an approx. it can have the values ​​of a German cannon of the same strength. Among the German guns I know, the values ​​of the 7.5 cm KwK 42 tank gun are the closest to the Hungarian sniper gun, this gun is the German Pz.Kpfw. It was the main weapon of V “Panther” tanks.

German 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70, Pz.Gr. 39/42 (6.8 kg)

Initial speed: 925 m/s

100 m - 138 mm - 60°

500 m - 124 mm - 60°

1000 m - 111 mm - 60°

1500 m - 99 mm - 60°

2000 m - 89 mm - 60°

The caliber length of the Hungarian sniper cannon and the Hungarian Panther tank cannon are the same, and the initial velocity of the projectile is almost the same - here the Hungarian cannon performs better with a value of 950 m/s. Based on these data, as well as what has been known and explained so far, it would probably not be an exaggeration to say that the Hungarian sniper rifle could penetrate armor 15-20 mm thicker than the German 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70. It is questionable whether the designers were aware of the existence of this experimental gun when designing the Tas.

By 1944, the war situation required Hungary to produce a more powerful anti-aircraft cannon. The 29/38.M Bofors were unable to deliver effective fire on American B-24 and B-17 formations flying at an altitude of 7,400 m, and Germany refused to use high-powered 8.8 cm and 10.5 cm and to transport anti-aircraft guns.

The new anti-aircraft gun and the accompanying grenades were also developed by DIMÁVAG and were standardized under the name 8 cm 29/44.M Bofors anti-aircraft gun. Only the prototype of the L/58 caliber gun was completed, which was fired in the spring of 1944 and achieved very favorable results.

Hungarian 8 cm 29/44.M Bofors L/58 anti-aircraft gun

Initial velocity of anti-aircraft grenade: 910 m/s

Armored grenade starting speed: 872 m/s

Estuary energy: 322.8 mt

Unfortunately, the anti-tank values ​​were not preserved, but it can still be seen that the new gun performed much better than the Hungarian 8 cm 29/38.M Bofors anti-aircraft gun. This makes it probable that the anti-tank value of the gun was somewhere between the 29/38.M Bofors L/48 anti-aircraft gun and the 8 cm slot-gun L/70 gun, i.e. around 120 mm/100 meters/60° impact angle. Some studies put the armor-piercing value of the gun at around 130mm/1000 meters/90° impact angle. The production was immediately ordered so that the last 16 of the pending 66 guns would be made with this barrel from October 1944.

Thus, in the spring of 1944, the WM factory could count on a new 80 mm gun, which, after being converted into a tank gun, could have been installed in the Tas heavy tank. Since the 8.8 cm FlaK 36 anti-aircraft gun hardly lost any of its value during the conversion to the 8.8 cm KwK 36 tank gun, we can even say for sure that the two Hungarian anti-aircraft guns would have retained their value even after their conversion to tank guns.

Taking these data into account, we can perhaps safely say that the Tas equipped with an 80 mm tank gun is the German Pz.Kpfw. Almost identical to the VI “Tigris” tank, it would have represented, if not better, firepower on the battlefield.

However, an 80 mm tank gun would not have been produced in time, so the WM factory was forced to design the 75 mm 43.M tank gun, which was already in production, into the Tas prototype, and the serial tanks would have been equipped with 80 mm guns later . Since only 2 of this cannon were manufactured - built into the Turán III and Zrínyi I prototypes, with an L/43 barrel - the WM factory had to wait for the third cannon, which DIMÁVAG would have already produced with an L/46 barrel. Assuming that the Hungarian 75 mm 43.ML/43 tank gun had the same anti-tank values ​​as the German 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 and 7.5 cm PaK 40 L/43, the Tas 75 mm The 43.ML/46 tank gun should have had the same anti-tank values ​​as the German 7.5cm PaK 40 L/46 anti-tank gun. Based on the plans, the tank gun could have been moved vertically in an angle range of -9° and +20°.

The Tas ammunition allowance would have been 50-80 grenades, in addition to armor-piercing grenades (APHEBC-T) and fragmentation grenades (HE-T), it is conceivable that an armor-piercing grenade (HEAT-T) would have been regularized - the 80 mm 29/38.M Bofors cumulative ammunition was already developed in 1942 under the name 29/42.M PR grenade for an anti-aircraft gun. The 80 mm gun and the accompanying grenades would probably have been regularized with the marking 44.M.

The tank would also have had 2 8 mm machine guns. One of the machine guns would have been connected to the tank gun, and the other would have been located on the frontal armor of the superstructure. A total of 3,000 rounds of ammunition would have been allocated to the two machine guns.

[Victory_799-psn]

How do you know that it must have had 173 mm of penetration?

The explosive filler is either Pentolite 50/50 (mix of 50% TNT and 50% PETN) or maybe just TNT. It has a lot of explosive filler though.

[ackenwald]

Dude that’s all doesn’t matter, because 80mm was never mounted on tas, as it says on Hungarian site.
Engineers WANTED mount it in tas, but on tests 80mm gun (not in tank) showed bad results and for temporary usage was chosen a 75mm 43m.
So 80mm tas never existed

[PacketlossRedux]

which 80mm gun showed bad results? Because what Karika wrote is that there were faults with the gun, thus production was delayed to fix those faults.
And since the TAS had a gunner optic made for it with “8cm. 43M. TAS heavy tank” written on it, its not a hypothesis that an 80mm gun was the main caliber selected for the tank.

Besides on the topic of “never mounted on” the turret was never mounted on the hull either.

[ackenwald]

@PacketlossRedux

which 80mm gun showed bad results

This one. While engineers were fixing it, 75 mm gun was mounted in tank

@PacketlossRedux

And since the TAS had a gunner optic made for it with “8cm. 43M

To produce a gun and to mount it in tank are 2 different things. Second one was never done

[Rambolf]

Didnt the Yak 141 never have some stuff that it does ingame? and are we forgetting about Japanese top tier…

Hell now I think of it didn’t some jets in the American tree not even have counter measures, the Radkampfwagen 90s turret wasn’t even properly installed on the damn tank let along be useable (lack of drivers optics)

[MXY7_Ohka_when]

@Rambolf

and are we forgetting about Japanese top tier…

By that I assume you mean the AJ and nothing else since every other plane and tank was built and tested in the config we have in game.

[Rambolf]

Also didnt the T80B never mount thermals… well it mounted them in testing but I think not in production

[atta26hu]

I dont know where did you find that it would be 173mm, but calculating with Gaijins calculator it is 156mm, so if they put the tank in game than it will probably have that penetration value.

New formuls for calculating of the armour piercing — War Thunder Wiki this is the calculator

http://real-j.mtak.hu/11729/1/Haditechnika_2008.pdf here at page 227 it says that at a 1000m it should have around 130mm of pen, which is like 150-155mm of penetration. Of course, it is calculated.

[ackenwald]

No idea why did you mentioned yak 141 if we are talking about Hungarian heavy tank

[Mahiwew]

Yak-141 was an aircraft that was historically capable of flight, but never lived to see it having it’s radar or armaments mounted. This lends more credibility to suggesting unfinished prototypes that could at least move on their own weight, such as the 80mm armed Tas.

[Victory_799-psn]

We have already discussed the 80 mm gun a lot on this topic and the old forum and most people agree that it is perfectly fine since that is the actual gun of the Tas, not the 75 mm gun which was just more of a temporary filler. Sure, the 80 mm gun was never mounted to the vehicle, but neither was the 75 mm gun, and besides, the main gun of the Chi-Ri was also never mounted… nor were the guns on the XP-50, or the turret and gun of the E-100, nor was the J6K or R2Y2 or Ho-Ri actually ready in their in-game form, and we could go on forever because half of the prototypes never were fully equipped and ready, yet they still get all of their components in-game.

[Victory_799-psn]

That’s just completely false. Of this list of Japanese tanks and planes, not a single one was actually ever completed in the form we have in-game:

Chi-Ri
Ho-Ri Prototype
Ho-Ri Production
J6K1
R2Y2 Kai V1
R2Y2 Kai V2
R2Y2 Kai V3

And these ones may also belong in the above list, although I’m not entirely sure of these:

Ki-87
Kikka
Ki-200
J7W1
Possibly more

[MXY7_Ohka_when]

Read the comment again, he specifically stated top tier.

[Leonardo651th]

This could not be at 5.3 ever, this would be 6.0 - 6.7

this one could be 5.3 tho

[Csirkespite]

Yeah this was made before Br changes, when the tigers and panthers were 5.3-5.7 respectivly so I could see the 80 mm around 6.0. But 6.7 is too much this is not a kingtiger level of tank.

[Victory_799-psn]

Oh yeah, my bad. But TBF you said:

By that I assume you mean the AJ and nothing else since every other plane and tank was built and tested in the config we have in game.

And because you didn’t specify top tier anywhere I assumed you meant all other planes and tanks from all tiers, rather than all at top tier.