Another thread regarding team kills:
It’s not like you were of any use to your team, flying a goddam F4U with bombs strapped on it. So at least your team’s chances of winning basically remained the sane.
Guys like Juno or No_Name from Noobs will TK you for 2 reasons:
- just because
- if you are good, to remove obstacle in achieving high kill count.
Of course they are not punished for it in any way.
And since they almost always fly in a squad, they can spread the teamkills among 3-4 guys, so basically they can kill every 1.9+ KPB guy they encounter on their team all day every day and never face any consequences.
This creates a natural reaction of “shoot on sight” on my part, because I’m not going to have any fun anyway, I have a timer on my head, once they realise I may be a threat to their score, so I can as well defend myself succesfully and cancel their fun.
WT has by far the most toxic community I’ve ever encountered.
On top of that - killstealing is rampant and I can’t even tell what counts as kill nowadays anyway - severe damage? Then why are some planes I “severly damaged” as in shot to pieces, that were then “finished off” not counting as my kills and a wreck I “finished off” cause it literally flew into my sights in a straight line down (so I did not even realise it’s ded) for some reason is…
Anyway, this creates frustration. Which makes monkeys aggressive.
But I rather face some primal, primitive aggression than “elite WT players” who are the biggest tailpipeholes in the business.
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Fully agree - and with the rest of your post, ofc, too.
Imho the main issue here, is that the auto-ban threshold way too low - tk fine is a joke for those “strategic” team killers.
Imho this new mechanic makes the job for malicious kill stealers even easier.
The average pilot might turn away as he is happy to get the 80% score and give guys optimizing their stats get (at least imho) way more opportunities for kill steals - because the majority of damage now classified as “severe damage” was a clean kill in the past…
I use 500 meters convergence on my B7A2 - somehow ideal to cut off both wings of a B-25 with my standard attack from direct above. It is amazing to see every few matches 2-4 team mates to dive after burning planes without wings…
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Yeah this basically incentivises shooting at a burning wreck.
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I found myself in such a situation yesterday at the GRB. Aircraft was on fire and could no longer be saved. The propeller was no longer running. As there were other opponents nearby, I left him to his fate.
A fresh IL-2 spawned and took the kill.
What annoyed me more was that I had a task in progress where I would have needed this one kill.
What am I getting at? Gaijin should, if they adapt the mechanics, also adapt the tasks at the same time.
On the other hand, I’m not really sure if I like the mechanics in their current state.
In the end you will “have” to get used to it … but somehow there is still an unpleasant aftertaste.
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Hidden as off topic
Although we go a little bit off-topic:
Gaijin promised that “severe damage 80% kills” would be considered in tasks. This was tested, but is currently not working:
Responding to the Severe Damage feedback & release time - #136 by _Poul
It’s not even tasks - you might have realized that tasks regarding crits or assists got way harder - even basic stuff like orders are not working properly:
Example “be the best” order:
Summary
They are already there - in addition to my “anti-air” order experience - i tested the order “be the best” - giving you guaranteed 15.000 SL if you got the highest score in max 5 minutes. I severely damaged the last enemy (just we 2 were still alive), activated the order and he crashed.
He got the 135 points for getting shot down - and i got 90 points when he finally crashed - in other words i made a donation of 15.000 SL and wasted an order…
Have a good one!
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or just disable TKing…
simplest thing ever.
Agreed (with small adjustments), we had this:
Besides that gaijin sees friendly fire as essential part of Air RB, there is rather stiff resistance for such a solution from experienced players claiming that this could be used to block shots on enemies or prevents them from punishing kill stealing friendlies…
Imho the fellow players of Air SB need this for realism.
I don’t think this function needs to be deactivated. I’ve only ever had one incident where I hit an ally with a few bullets, he then rammed the plane into the ground due to a flight error and I got the team kill for it.
He flew through my shower of bullets as I was attacking a ground target. Neither he nor I could have prevented it.
I think there definitely needs to be more discipline from the players in certain situations and appropriate consequences for players who don’t know their limits.
Just a thought experiment:
What if there was a jury of players analysing replays.
There is no GE or SL for this. The replays are played out to 5 randomly selected members of this jury who do not know or cannot find out from each other that they are on the jury.
Of course, the list of friends would also have to be taken into account. So that no arrangements can take place there.
Each jury member then gets an insight into the number of TCs that have already happened and any “previous convictions”. A judgement is then made on the current incident and if there is a majority, there are consequences. It may be possible to consider a penalty recommendation from the jury.
I realise that this is certainly not a perfect system and that there may be other thoughts here and there, or problems that I don’t see.
But you have to think about changes somewhere.
I got several times teamkilled by greedy retards diving from low earth orbit on the guy in front of me - they compressed and crashed into me - and i was blamed as teamkiller. And i was at least 10 times on this account teamkilled by plain idiots just for fun - i survived a lot of other attacks just by pure luck, preemptive measures or was able to kill the guy as he messed up his first approach. So imho your reasoning shows that different people might have different experiences.
We have this, they are called Game Masters.
Ofc - this whole issue could be solved if gaijin would preemptively eliminate the major factors which are leading to teamkills and perma ban malicious team killers.
Imho they refuse to invest money in this issue as some issues look not cheap to solve and team killers are customers too - they lose real money if they perma ban malicious team killers.
If you have friends addicted to jets & top tier - they kill each other on their way to bases - 4 bases and 10 guys going for them does not fit together.
Same as kill stealers - just add 2 columns to the stats: #1 number of assists and #2 total number of assists + kills and communicate that the total number is decisive for tasks/achievements/wagers/orders/events and at least some guys would be way more relaxed.
I got several times teamkilled by greedy retards diving from low earth orbit on the guy in front of me - they compressed and crashed into me - and i was blamed as teamkiller. And i was at least 10 times on this account teamkilled by plain idiots just for fun - i survived a lot of other attacks just by pure luck, preemptive measures or was able to kill the guy as he messed up his first approach. So imho your reasoning shows that different people might have different experiences.
I’m sorry that this has happened to you. I should have added that my experience is based solely on GRB. What’s going on in the ARB … well … this thread exists for a reason. Far be it from me to minimise the things that happen there, on the contrary, they require action.
We have this, they are called Game Masters.
And learnt something again. Thank you.
Ofc - this whole issue could be solved if gaijin would preemptively eliminate the major factors which are leading to teamkills and perma ban malicious team killers.
This reminds me strongly of the traffic situation in my old home country of Germany, Berlin … Chaos because there are no consequences for wrong behaviour.
Imho they refuse to invest money in this issue as some issues look not cheap to solve and team killers are customers too - they lose real money if they perma ban malicious team killers.
I agree with you on this point. But Gaijin may be thinking too short-sightedly. My wallet is currently closed due to many problems that are being ignored or sometimes even made worse.
Sure, I’m just one customer, but if more do it, it adds up in the long term.
Basically, if the TK system is not reformed, it will certainly drive many out of the game again. Yes, the player numbers are high, but you shouldn’t rest on your laurels.
Same as kill stealers - just add 2 columns to the stats: #1 number of assists and #2 total number of assists + kills and communicate that the total number is decisive for tasks/achievements/wagers/orders/events and at least some guys would be way more relaxed.
Good suggestion!
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Any ideas how to solve arty strike issues?
In the last round I had a Tiger that carelessly drove into the cap on which I had requested an artillery strike shortly before because of an opponent.
He left the battle so quickly that the “apologise for the teamkill” function was useless.
In my opinion, it’s quite unfair that I’m being penalised for his carelessness. I have the TK on the clock plus the rep costs.
It was basically a 1-2 second wait because all the red smoke markers were clearly visible.
What annoys me the most is that he actually provided good support.
Far to many links, posts in this topic, far to confusing. Needs polishing up to be a pinned post
Team killing can be frustrating in War Thunder, and it’s essential to find effective ways to prevent it. Here are just some of my suggestions:
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Damage Reflection Mechanism:
Implement a system where accidental friendly fire results in your own vehicle taking the damage you would have inflicted. [This instant karma approach discourages team killing while maintaining the need for clear target identification before shooting] -
Forgive TK Option:
Allow players who accidentally kill a teammate to be forgiven by the affected player. [This system has been successfully implemented in other games and lets the victim decide whether forgiveness is appropriate] -
Moderator Intervention:
Introduce moderators who investigate each team kill. If a player consistently team kills, they could face penalties or temporary bans. [This approach ensures fair judgment and discourages intentional griefing] -
Permanent Bans for Repeat Offenders:
Consider permanently banning players with a high number of team kills over a specific period. [For instance, more than 10 team kills per month for two consecutive months or more than 20 in a single month could trigger a permanent ban] -
Selective Friendly Fire:
Restrict friendly fire only for players who have a history of team killing. [This way, accidental team kills won’t affect other players, but intentional griefers will still face consequences]
Remember that finding the perfect solution may require a combination of these methods. The goal is to maintain a positive gaming experience while minimizing team killing incidents
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Fully support this view.
Imho your list sounds reasonable, but if i see the 1st 2 points
I see from a holistic approach (so by looking at all game modes) two severe drawbacks:
- Damage reflection:
- For fellow Ground RB players we have 2 common ways of teamkilling: Arty and reckless pilots dropping stuff like FAB 5.000s on capture points. Even if they announce their actions, friendlies ignore it (either plain stupid, chat deactivated or unable to read foreign languages).
- Forgive team kill option:
- Sounds great, but i see mainly squadded teams having a real benefit - as they teamkill each other to deny kills for enemies, or because they are just trolling.
The other 3 ideas:
look great.
But imho this would require that gaijin at least acknowledges that modes like Air RB have a team killing problem. From my pov this is not the case.
So in case the would change their mind my response to your ideas:
- Moderators:
- Based on my observations this looks rather like a mission impossible just due the incredible high numbers of team kills. I mean there is a reason why they have introduced this (imho not working) auto-ban system.
- Even if you would limit this to props, it looks way more efficient to increase severe punishments for team kills within the first minutes (take-off phase) and if no enemies are near (circle of 3km)
- But i have seen too many replays of fellow jet pilots firing missiles at long range and a friendly flies into them - or missiles went rogue and killed friendlies not even near the initial target.
- Perma bans
- Fully agree, but imho not a question of total numbers, more like a ratio (TKs vs played matches); otherwise you would punish very active players as unintentional teamkills based on plain stupidity (like running in own arty or flying through friendly bullet stream) still happen.
- Selective friendly fire
- Great idea, i recommend also ratio instead of fixed numbers.
Great job, have a good one!
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- Damage Reflection Mechanism:
-
The idea of having accidental friendly fire result in self-damage is intriguing. It would indeed discourage reckless shooting and promote better target identification.
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However, implementing this system would require careful balancing. For example, it should not be overly punitive, especially in situations where players accidentally hit a teammate due to chaotic battles or close-quarters combat.
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Additionally, the severity of self-damage would need to be calibrated to avoid unintended consequences.
- Forgive TK Option:
-
Allowing players to forgive accidental team kills is a positive step. It puts the decision in the hands of the affected player, allowing them to assess the situation.
-
This system has been successful in other games, as it promotes forgiveness and reduces frustration.
-
However, as you rightly pointed out, squadded teams could potentially exploit this feature. Developers would need to consider safeguards to prevent abuse.
Drawbacks and Considerations:
- Balancing: Both systems would require careful balancing to ensure they don’t negatively impact gameplay or encourage griefing.
- Community Behavior: The success of these features also depends on the community’s behavior. Players need to use them responsibly.
- Game Modes: As you mentioned, considering all game modes is crucial. The impact of these changes should be assessed across different modes (Ground RB, Air RB, Naval, etc.).
In the end, any changes to the team-killing system should aim to strike a balance between promoting fair play, reducing frustration, and preventing abuse.
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- Introducing Moderators:
- Having dedicated moderators to investigate team kills is a proactive step. It ensures fair judgment and discourages intentional griefing.
- However, as you rightly pointed out, the sheer volume of team kills in some games can overwhelm human moderators. Automation or a combination of automated systems and Manual (Human) oversight might be necessary.
- Permanent Bans for Repeat Offenders:
- Implementing permanent bans for repeat offenders is a strong deterrent. It sends a clear message that team killing is unacceptable.
- Calculating the threshold based on a ratio (team kills vs. played matches) is a fair approach. It accounts for both frequency and overall playtime.
- Selective Friendly Fire:
- Restricting friendly fire only for players with a history of team killing is a clever solution. It minimizes accidental team kills while still penalizing intentional griefers.
- Using a ratio (e.g., team kills per match) for triggering this restriction ensures flexibility and adaptability.
Acknowledging the Problem: You raise an essential point. Acknowledging that certain game modes have a team killing problem is crucial. Developers need to recognize this issue to implement effective solutions.
Thank you for sharing your insights, and I appreciate your feedback
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TBH the new system is better in that people with 50Cals are not going to take the kill you have made by shooting off most of the parts with a cannon…