Team killing policy - follow up thread

Game Discussion General Discussion
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360

In ground RB, 3D maneuvering is not a crucial part of a player’s skillset.

In Air RB and sim, 3D maneuvering is your main skill. Gunnery is secondary to that. In fact, I’d say even maneuvering is secondary compared to situational awareness. Good situational awareness will get you kills and keep you alive over any amount of maneuvering or gunnery.

If you’re outnumbered, you want to maneuver in such a way that prevents multiple enemies getting their guns on you without them risking hitting each other. You also want to maneuver in such a way that they have to either break off or risk collission with each other.

Two planes colliding while you’re fighting for your life is one of the best feelings there is in a prop plane dogfight.

What leads to enemies shooting each other or colliding? Failure in the skills of situational awareness and 3D maneuvering.

Removing friendly fire or post-take off collissions will significantly reduce the skill floor (as attacker) and skill ceiling (as defender) in propeller dogfights.

And air RB is ideally nothing more but a more accessible version of air sim. This was more true back in the day than these days with match length and map design changes (Dover strait used to be an air RB map for props! Now you can only fly it in sim EC). This accessibility is reached in controls and third person view.

361

If team killing is NOT ALLOWED under any circumstances, and is a bannable offense WITH NO EXCUSES, which i’m assuming means even if its an accident you will be issued a ban if reported… Then why even have team damaged enabled?

Why give players the opportunity to accidentally kill a teammate in arcade and RB if you are just going to ban them? I get it may add to the “realism” of combat, but at what cost? A perm ban because my IR missile locked a team mate? Its pretty clear this rule MUST be addressed and given a proper definition, because as its sits all this rule does is allow players to be randomly banned at the drop of a hat because they accidentally killed a team member three months back.

2 Likes
362

Because situational awareness and careful 3D maneuvering are vital skills to flying a plane.

Removing the need for them removes both skill floor and ceiling alike.

You make it much harder to fly defensively when outnumbered. If the enemy does not have to worry about collissions or friendly fire, they can just blindly spray in your direction and nullify a lot of counterplay options. Even just the increased volume of fire will mean the numbers advantage will be even more exagarated. With collissions and friendly fire, only one or two planes can shoot you from your six and deflection shots carry a fair amount of risk for third parties.

363

Serious doubt on that first one. I come from AB, and even though we don’t have friendly fire there is plenty of collisions. Disable friendly fire and you solve all the problems- with missiles it admittedly gets more complicated, but for guns its perfectly fine to remove FF.

Disable collisions for 1-2m post-takeoff and that problem is mostly solved, as the risk of collision goes significantly down.

Missiles… I don’t know. Personally I think they should implement a system where it tracks the initial lock- if it locks onto an enemy it will deal friendly damage, but if it just locks on to a friendly it will not. (This may need significant tweaking though, I am open to ideas.)

364

I’m all for disabling friendly fire near the runway and for the first 1-2 minutes of the matches.

However, this should be done if we can ensure there’s no merges happening in the first 1-2 minutes. Which is something that should be the case generally, as that’s a massive turn off of air RB for me (lake ladoga my behated)

365

ok to be frank this is the exact opposite position from what I hold but w h a t e v e r

An airspawn system similar to AAB could work to at least alleviate the TK’ing problem, especially if aircraft were spaced out along a few km.

366

If you look, I said “Remove collisions between teammates for the first 1-2 minutes of a battle”.

367

If this is such a vital part of the game, then why are players punished by losing access to their account permanently?

You are completely missing the point, being a “bad” pilot due to inexperience should not mean you are removed from the game forever. Being banned for not being “Careful” enough, is not a gameplay mechanic. We are talking about being BANNED for a expected feature of the game.

Gaijin is telling you, YOU WILL BE PUNISHED FOR EXPECTED GAMEPLAY.

You can sit here all day and shout how it is a integral part of the game, but if that was truly your position, you would be arguing that team killing and team damage should be HANDLED with in game consequences such as a cool down or great SL penalty. Not to be PUNISHED for playing the game how is expected to be played. If i am EXPECTED to accidently shoot my team, and im EXPECTED to accidently run into friendly planes, then I should not be PUNISHED for said expectations.

2 Likes
368

this.

369

I don’t think you’ll get banned for killing a teammate or two in a dogfight. People teamkill plenty in sim because of no indicators and they’re still around.

People barely get banned for griefing on take off.

Edit:

Hell, I’ve killed a few B17s in my corsair thinking they were Pe-8s or Me-264 and they didn’t respond to my map pings. I lost a lot of SL, but I’m still around.

370

You’re supposed to learn from your mistakes.

Removing Team damage would lead to an even bigger cluster F

371

Thing is, you were the one who coined realism.

My true objection to any of the ‘solutions’ you’ve brought, and those who try to avoid the consequences of thier actions, and ignoring what they are doing, for no reason other than ignorance.

It’s nothing to do with the ‘need’ to review everything, or the time or attention taken by it, as it should already be that way in the first place.

The rules are there for a reason, and if they aren’t following them, then why are you? And that becomes the principal of the entire issue.

To minimalize it in this manner, is true bad faith…

These people we are pointing at are doing this to double-digits of players per match at times, and going match to match doing the same thing.

A noob, or even a bad player, wouldn’t be doing this at all.

372

You would be incorrect to think that way. Early in this thread, GM Schindibee clearly states:
“You WILL be punished sooner or later.”

“Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is team killing allowed.”

“And, again, as the game rules clearly state, team damage and team killing is forbidden and a punishable offense. There’s no arguing around that.”

“As I said, “may be flawed”, but that’s not the topic here, the topic being TK, and the stance is “there is no excuse for a TK”.”

“Accidents do not “happen”. Accidents are caused.
And this often through neglect: Not caring about situational awareness.”

“If I fire in a situation where a nearby ally could potentially get in the way (be that arty, gunfire, missiles,…), I’m at least partially responsible for the result.
TK’s can “happen” to all of us, but looking back at the TK’s I have on my “conscience”, I can truly say that they were probably all because I wasn’t careful enough to ID my target, take into consideration movement of nearby players, or firing missiles in merged situations.
All avoidable.”

Not sure about you, but from what a GM is telling us, what you are saying IS a bannable offense, and if its come across by a moderator, YOU WILL be BANNED.

373

Rule of thumb, rules are enforced based on context.

Someone who constantly teamkills across multiple matches versus one or two accidents is going to have very different outcomes. Same for hitting a teammate in a furball versus runway griefing.

374

This is wrong, you are not a GM.

The GM, that decides whether or not your actions are bannable, has stated that your actions are bannable no matter how you want to justify your team kill, compared to another persons teamkill, they are viewed the same.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the GM’s decide how rulings work and they tell you exactly how they work. Im not sure why you think your interpretation of the rules is more accurate then the words straight from the ones who decide whether or not your actions are bannable.

375

Tell me how all the people in air sim havn’t been banned yet. Just take a cursory glance at /r/warthundersim looking for “TK” “Teamkill” in the search field to find plenty of examples.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarthunderSim/comments/1f1gp5q/77_thousand_sl_for_one_tk/

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarthunderSim/comments/15d3uzj/did_they_up_ff_penalties/

None of these people were banned.

376

Again, from the words of the moderation:

"Well, you’re in no position to be sure, as you don’t have access to that data.

And, again, as the game rules clearly state, team damage and team killing is forbidden and a punishable offense. There’s no arguing around that."

“TKs were always mostly handled automatically, not per review.”

“If he commits TK’s, he is being punished as soon as the TK algorithm is triggered, just like everybody else.”

“No.
There is NO excuse for TK’s and if you commit TK’s you will get punished sooner or later.”

“the topic being TK, and the stance is “there is no excuse for a TK”.”

"No, you still don’t understand. There are no two types (which would imply “good” and “bad” TK’s).

TK’s are not allowed, no matter how frustrated you are about anything that happens to you in the game.

Any discussion about “…but I get frustrated when someone does this or that…” are completely irrelevant. Just as your not allowed to become abusive and insulting in chat, your not allowed to damage or kill your team member, neither by intention or by neglect. "

“Accidents do not “happen”. Accidents are caused.
And this often through neglect: Not caring about situational awareness.”

  • Schindibee

Im not here to put words into the mouth of the staff at Gaijin, the rules and the way they are ruled on are CLEARLY being stated here.
Im sorry certain players have not been banned, THAT DOESNT MEAN IT ISNT COMING.

377

You have a fascinating obsession with hypothetical and a disregard for lived experience.

The context of your quoted response is clearly in response to intentional, aggrevated teamkilling as well. Namely, killing props in high tier and the like.

378

You are clearly doing EXACTLY what moderation says doesn’t matter. You can not ARGUE with the fact that it is a PUNISHABLE OFFENSE, no matter the CIRCUMSTANCES.

So all of these “whataboutisms” are utterly meaningless, no matter HOW you view it, TEAM KILLING IS PUNISHABLE WITH A BAN.

379

image

Also randomly capitalizing words is rather fascinating way to communicate.

Do note the words, “continuously” and “many.”