You don’t understand what im saying. The leopard 1 was 7.7 this was a while ago. They moved down to 7.3 where it curb stomped. Only recently it got uptiered from 7.3 to 8.0
M60 is easily avoided and even in a folder, it’s not the main vehicle in the tree… the Leo is also played 20 times as much at the very least.
Same turret rotation, same reload speed, same ammo, extra .50 cal on top and packing quite a lot of armor that gives decent protection, the only thing worse than the Leopard is mobility.
The T-44s have an exceptional upper front plate that is immune even to the Jagdtiger’s 128mm if the player remembers to angle it even slightly. Its closest German equivalent, the Panther F, has no such luxury against Soviet heavies.
This is a very limited example, but it serves to point out that the T-44 is a tank with excellent frontal protection and excellent mobility. That’s two out of the three relevant performance criteria. The third, firepower, is not great, but it’s adequate. Yes, the T-44 has trouble dealing with threats head on, but it’s also troublesome to be dealt with head on: if the lower front plate is hidden, it’s down to its turret, which is pennable but trolly. And because it can use its mobility to flank, it can be very lethal even without a massively deadly gun.
When it DOES get a deadly gun, with the T-44-100, you have what is basically a proto MBT. Great frontal armour versus kinetic shots, great mobility, and a show-stopping round that is perfectly comparable to the Tiger II’s in pen, post pen, and reload time.
In other words: it hits as hard as a Tiger II, while being much faster, without sacrificing frontal protection.
And you wonder why it’s at 7.0?
No but I wonder why there is a 5.0 panther and why the rest of them are 5.3/5.7 when they are 6.0 worthy
The VK3002 does have a really potent gun, and good mobility for its BR. It’s also less armoured than the D though, and the turret rotation is abysmal. Still, I basically consider it a sidegrade to the D, ideally both should be 5.3 because of that.
That said, Panthers have several disadvantages. Turret armour in this game is always more important than hull armour, and in that department they are all very lacking (save for the times when volumetric decides to screw over players firing at its gun mantlet).
The reverse speed and (in most cases) slow turret rotation means you can’t shoot and scoot, which is essential if you really are flanking with a medium. And if a bomb drops on you, your choices are drive forward and die, stay still and die, reverse and die.
Their “good mobility” often translates to being able to get to a good spot where they can act as tank destroyers for the rest of the game. They certainly don’t play like regular mediums.
Also, at 6.0 the gun begins to struggle a little, especially because of the poor explosive filler.
Personally, aside from VK to 5.3, I would bring the Panther A to 6.0. It has the best turret rotation, which makes it more reactive, and a better flanker.
Conversely the Panther F should go down to 5.7, because it sucks. The flat turret cheeks, while an improvement IRL, are simply a death sentence in WT. It’s slower than the A because of the RPM governor, and is the third-slowest Panther in the game when it comes to turret rotation.
It gets a better zoom and reload, meaning it’s supposed to be the designated “marksman” variant, except that at 6.0 the gun isn’t particularly good at that role.
With all those negatives it’s still better than every other tank at this br, so I don’t get your point
Tigers are better flankers than Panthers, more reactive in close quarters (i.e. the vast majority of the maps in this game), don’t appreciably sacrifice mobility, and have more chances of surviving the odd hit here and there. The slightly worse pen is only really an issue when sniping, which they still do competently because the explosive filler means pens will usually kill.
My friends and I who play these BRs together, jokingly refer to the Tigers as “the M18s” and I think that’s quite telling. Tiger Is in this game make for pretty good medium-like flankers.
Need to snipe? You have six million tank destroyers to choose from. Dicker Max pens as much as a Panther, with more explosive filler. Sturer Emil, Nashorn and Waffenträger are extremely deadly too.
The Tiger P prototype premium has similar turret rotation to the Panthers but much better frontal armour.
Even at 6.0, you have two Jagdpanthers that move faster than the Panther F while having better frontal armour and a better gun. Same downsides in reverse etc. Why would you pick the F over them?
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy Panthers for what they are, and some, like the A, are undertiered, I agree. But the only thing the F is “best” at is being a disappointment, and the others are good without really excelling, in my opinion.
No personal biased I presume right?
About the dicker max/emil, also extremly undertiered. Much like the pz 4 at 3.3 (you kidding me)
My arguement remains that germany around wwii tiers is completly handheld from a balance standpoint.
Mmmh. That’s a bit of a strange remark, don’t you think? Your logic is backwards. Think about it this way. I have clearly expressed opinions as to which vehicles I think are good, and which ones I think are not so good.
Don’t you think it would be a little weird, if I played the vehicles I don’t enjoy, more than the vehicles I feel more comfortable with? :P
So, no. It’s the other way around. I don’t think much of the Panther F, ergo I don’t play it a lot.
That said, just to be clear: I mostly play to try and get better at the game. That includes broadening my horizons. I play several BRs routinely, and there are several vehicles I want to “get right” since when I spaded them, I was new to the game and didn’t really know how to use them. That will include playing with Panthers a lot more, too.
Still, while I may be nothing special, I’m also not an idiot. I like sniping, so you would think the Panther F would suit me. It doesn’t. I’m not very comfortable in close quarters, so you would think playing, say, Panther A on Sweden would not suit me, and yet I have a great time with it and I’m readily able to recognise that it’s undertiered; if it can be good in my hands, it would be much more lethal in the hands of someone who can better play medium tanks to their strengths.
The A and the F may both be Panthers, but they are not the same.
Agreed on Panzer IVs at 3.3. Even the H and J at 3.7 are too low, they should be 4.3.
But I disagree on the Dicker Max and the Sturer Emil, and I’d encourage you to play them to find out yourself. They are extremely situational. Urban close quarters with no elevation changes represent 75% of the matches you’ll play in this game, and this is a game built around capping points.
If the SU 122 can be 2.3…
(Not saying it doesn’t belong. Just that DM and SE are not a special case).
The fact that they can kill things at BRs much higher than them, is simply a virtue of the way their own performance triangle looks like. These vehicles sacrifice EVERYTHING for their guns. Shit mobility, no survivability, so it doesn’t matter if they’re facing a Sherman 105 or a T-10M, so long as the gun works, they are virtually BR-agnostic.
That’s true of many many other glass cannons in the game. Being one-shot is being one-shot, no matter the BR. If the gun works, then it works.
It really isn’t. Gaijin always balances vehicles by player stat, and we know what that leads to. It’s a system with many strengths and weaknesses, and we the players have to live with it at every single BR, in every single match.
Sometimes, it plays in my favour, sometimes it plays in your favour. That’s how the cookie crumbles.
I get to play the Panzer IV G at 3.3, which is just criminal. But I also get a mid-BRs lineup without a true light vehicle in it, which is a huge disadvantage because again: game built around capping points. Not to mention the CAS discount, with all that that implies.
The fact that Germany is the country of new players also has the flip side effect by the way. I am comfortable at many different BRs and I don’t shy away from the challenge, but I hate playing German 5.3, because the player distribution virtually guarantees you’ll always be playing against 6.3. No other BR I have ever played gets fully uptiered as often as German 5.3.
It just depends on the map, they have the gun for 4.7. The only difference is earlier wwii vehicle wont face it since they rely on armor (which isnt that strong). On a good map they can fight even 5.7 tanks. My only arguement against it being 3.7 is that it faces 2.7-3.7 tanks
Oh, they can do better than that. I got a nuke with a Dicker Max as my first spawn on Frozen Pass once, on a 6.7 game, and got kills on M103s and T-10Ms a few times (mostly through luck and a good position).
But this is balanced out by all the times in which they can do absolutely nothing to help out the team. If the team’s losing, you need to quickly decap something, there’s CAS in the air, or your side is clear but you need to relocate to the other side of the map to try and help out a collapsing flank… yeah.
These are vehicles that are just exceptional when the stars align, and completely useless when they do not. In other words: situational.
Yeah but when you think about it… is it really that much of a problem against a Dicker Max?
What I mean is this. The Dicker Max’s signature trait is the gun. At 2.7, that gun is complete overkill, which means you arguably have fewer reasons to spawn it: you’re taking a penalty in mobility and versatility, for… what? What are you going to meet at 2.7 that you absolutely cannot pen with the rest of your fully-downtiered 3.7 lineup?
It’s one of those few tanks that actually doesn’t benefit from going down too much. You meet no armour so strong that would justify you giving up everything in order to have a derp gun, and light speedy boys are always more of a threat to you than the big targets are anyway.
This is a big game hunter. If I’m at 3.7 and I get a full downtier, my first spawn choice will be the German KVII, or the Panzer IV H.
How can anyone possibly have an issue with the Dicker Max and think it’s OP?
It’s a matter of perspective. Like I said, it’s a vehicle of no in betweens. What it does, it does exceptionally well.
If you’re on the receiving end of its gun, say you’re in an IS-2 and you get frontally one-shot by it, you can feel somewhat aggravated. But that’s only because you’re seeing it at its best. When you actually play it and have to wring its neck, you understand why it’s at 3.7.
That’s why, btw, I’m always a little cautious when analysing vehicles I haven’t played myself. I’m pretty confident that the T-44-100 belongs at 7.0, but I haven’t played it myself, so of course I’m very open for input from people that have experience using it.
I can see the discrepancies when people judge, from the outside, vehicles I use a lot, and I don’t want to repeat the same errors.
I’d love to shoot an IS-2 but you’re likely dead before you get the chance by the very first plane that spawns, or artillery, MGs, bombs, your breech is constantly destroyed, it’s difficult to get on target, long reload etc.
Besides as mentioned, anything the Dicker does can be done better by other TT vehicles, it’s gun is overkill and primarily brings downsides when at best increases the chances of a one shot kill.
Primarily useful to deal with KVs, but mainly because they have a botched damage model that absorbs everything.
I’ll give you a practical example of doing this. Dicker’s in my 5.7 lineup as well. When you happen to play Finland on the northern side, take Dicker Max to the hill that overlooks the crooked road towards B.
You definitely make contact with the IS-2s before any planes have spawned. I’ve had some amazing matches in that spot even when crazily uptiering it.
In most circumstances.
In others, it’s a monster.
If I’m playing the 3.7 BR, and I’m at Volokolamsk… there’s no other tank in the German lineup I’d rather use.
If you’re playing 5.7 I don’t know why you just don’t bring the Nashorn.
Nice stats for the Jagtiger bro, it’s amazing that you could find a workaround for something that slow.
Not mine but the jagtigor is insane, surprised it isn’t 7.0 My favourite TD in game
I do! And I love it to bits. But on a map like Finland, you need gun depression, which is the one weakness of the Nashorn over its Dicker/Sturer cousins.
Thanks! Though I feel like I could do much better tbh. At least in terms of wins and kills per battle. I know K/d is a bit less reliable when it comes to judging how well you’re doing.
Two of my three nukes have been with the JT. It’s a really good vehicle, just… again, situational.
Here’s a video about a good 7.7 match I had with it recently on Frozen Pass: Telegram: Contact @warblunder
“T44-100 is just so much better for .3 BR”
Exactly. Once I unlocked it, I pretty much stopped playing the regular T44.