Difference its that you can kill the ZTZ with an autocannon to the front low plate chasis.
1 Like
The T-80UD is by no means worse then the T-80B, which is a 10.7 vehicle in its own right. So why it sits at a lower BR is beyond me. The T-80UD could easily be 11.0, given that its at the very least on par with the M1 base model and could easily be better in the right hands (I would make the same argument about the TURMS- as I have both the Abrams and the Turms and I believe I currently have a better if not equal KDR in the TUrms) so.
1 Like
Hence why I said turret, aka the place people aim the majority of the time.
5mm of kinetic protection btw
Bro gets mogged by a 9.3 T-72A with some ERA and thermals
1 Like
M1 has the same stats at 10.7 as TURMS does at 10.3, so I doubt they should share the same BR.
HAHAHAHA thats funny
sorry did you just suggest 2S38 should be 10.0 as well?
You are absolutely correct, and anyone who has spent significant time in the 9.0 to 11.0 Battle Rating bracket can attest to the profound imbalance these two vehicles represent. The proposition to move both the T-72AV (TURMS-T) and the 2S38 to a 10.0 BR is not just a casual suggestion; it’s a necessary correction to address two glaringly obvious, yet opposite, problems. One vehicle is a relic struggling against hyper-modern opponents, while the other is a futuristic multi-role terror that clubs anything below it. Placing them both at 10.0 would be a monumental step towards rationalizing the high-tier experience.
The T-72AV (TURMS-T): A Tank Betrayed by its Own Chassis
The argument for moving the T-72AV (TURMS-T) down to 10.0 is a story of its fundamental limitations. While it boasts two powerful modern features—excellent Gen 2 thermal sights for both the gunner and commander and the potent 3BM42 “Mango” APFSDS round—these are bolted onto a chassis that is simply not fit for the environment of its current BR. It is a glass cannon without the mobility to choose its engagements, making it, for all intents and purposes, a sniper in a game that increasingly favors dynamic, close-range brawls.
Its most crippling deficiency is its mobility, or rather, the lack thereof. With a power-to-weight ratio of around 18 hp/ton and a notoriously abysmal reverse speed of just 4-5 km/h, the TURMS is a sitting duck in any fast-paced exchange. In high-tier War Thunder, the ability to fire and immediately reverse into cover is paramount. The TURMS cannot do this. Once it commits to a corner, it is a fixed emplacement. This is a death sentence when facing opponents like the Leopard or Abrams, which possess vastly superior mobility and can dictate the flow of battle, flank with ease, and retreat from danger in seconds. This is compounded by sluggish acceleration and slow turret traverse, making its reaction time to sudden threats painfully slow.
Furthermore, its protection is wholly inadequate for its BR. The armor is based on an older T-72M1/A-series hull, and while covered in Kontakt-1 ERA, this provides negligible protection against the kinetic penetrators it regularly faces. Rounds common at its BR and above will slice through its upper front plate with little difficulty. Its survivability is further hampered by the classic Soviet design of a tightly packed crew compartment sitting on top of an ammunition carousel; a single successful penetration is often a catastrophic, one-shot kill. The poor gun depression of -6 degrees also severely restricts its ability to fight from hull-down positions on ridgelines, forcing it to expose its vulnerable chassis.
In essence, the T-72AV (TURMS-T) has the eyes and the sting of a modern tank, but the body and legs of a bygone era. Its strengths only shine in long-range, static engagements where it can leverage its thermals and powerful gun. However, the moment it’s forced into a close-quarters fight by the map or the enemy, its dreadful mobility and slow handling make it an easy kill. It is outclassed in every crucial performance metric by the true modern tanks it faces. Moving it to 10.0 would place it in a bracket where its armor is slightly more effective and its mobility is less of a fatal handicap, allowing its strengths to be used without being immediately negated by its profound weaknesses.
The 2S38: A Jack-of-All-Trades, Master of All
On the opposite end of the spectrum is the 2S38, a vehicle so versatile and overwhelmingly powerful for its BR that it single-handedly warps the balance of any match it enters. Arguing for it to be at 10.0 is, frankly, a conservative estimate; many in the community would argue for 10.7 or even 11.0.
The core of the 2S38’s oppressive power is its 57mm 2A90 autocannon, which fires every 0.5 seconds. This weapon is a multi-purpose tool of destruction. Armed with APFSDS, it can penetrate over 200mm of armor, allowing it to shred light vehicles and easily tear through the side armor of any MBT. The sheer rate of fire means that even a glancing hit can be followed by a stream of shells that will cripple or destroy an opponent before they can even traverse their turret.
But its anti-tank capability is only half the story. The 2S38 is also arguably one of the best anti-aircraft vehicles in the game. It has access to HE-VT (proxy-fuzed) shells and, most critically, an IRST system that provides automatic tracking and a lead indicator for aircraft. This turns it into a point-and-click death machine for helicopters and planes, a capability that is simply unfair at its BR. It is a light tank that doubles as a top-tier SPAA.
This lethality is paired with excellent mobility from its BMP-3 chassis, high-quality thermal sights for easy target acquisition, and surprisingly trollish survivability thanks to a crewless turret and internal layout that can often absorb shells without taking critical damage. When you combine its role as a scout, a tank destroyer, and an elite SPAA, you have a vehicle that is far too effective for its cost. In a downtier, it faces tanks from 9.0 that have no hope of fighting back. It even performs exceptionally well when uptiered to the highest levels of the game, a clear sign that its current BR is far too low. Vehicles with comparable, and in some cases inferior, capabilities like the HSTV-L or OTOMATIC sit at much higher BRs, which makes the 2S38’s placement a glaring anomaly. Moving it up to 10.0 is the absolute minimum required to restore a semblance of balance.
In conclusion, your assessment is spot on. The T-72AV (TURMS-T) is an under-performer struggling in a bracket it is not equipped to handle, while the 2S38 is an over-performer that dominates its bracket with impunity. A synchronized BR change—moving the TURMS down to 10.0 and the 2S38 up to 10.0—would be a logical and necessary step to address both issues, creating a more balanced and fair gameplay experience for all nations.
Well, he’s not wrong really. The only thing I disagree is that Kontact1 provides KE protection
For MBTs, Both the UD and Turms have nearly identical weakspots.
The situation changes when it’s a high penning round like the m900
10.3 is a fair BR placement for the Turms. The UD on the other hand…
everything has amazing armour if you use M774
1 Like
this sounds like an AI paragraph
1 Like
aL paragraph?
What even is this discussion.
Ignoring the fact that t72 turms and 2s38 are perfectly fine at their br and most certainly do not need a buff, why suggest moving them down? Moving modern tanks down in br only works whenever they are overtiered, not when they are underpowered. We should always be looking to move things up in br, never move things down.
By moving things up I mean moving entire br ranges up while keeping underperforming vehicles at their br. There is already a shit ton of compression in WT and we don’t need to make it worse by lowering the br of tanks that underperform.
And just to be absolutely clear, the T72 turms and the 2s38 are not underperforming. At least not by the vehicles being underpowered. (The OP has like a .7k/d in the 2s38 for the record)
Lol, they both should be 16.7, as any other russian vehicle
1 Like
I agree, 6.7 BR is perfect for both the 2S38 and TURMS-T.
I didn’t say 6.7 I said 24.3
1 Like
TURMS is overtiered.
My bad, you are right, 4.3 is a much more appropriate BR for them both 👍
If it lost 3BM42 I think I’d be fine with it being 10.0, extremely dubious if it could use that round anyway