Submarines - WT Discussion

The problem with subs tho is that they would have barely any impact on the game.

In RB they would be severely limited by their speed and torpedo speed. I think best WW2 subs could score 1-2 kills when lucky then they would be pretty much useless.

In AB torps would be replenished and way faster so you could get more opportunities to kill but still you would be slowest ship on the map, welcoming any subchaser, mtb, destroyer or plane to dunk you with a depth charge for easy points. Best MTBs are very efficient in large ship hunting already, I dont see a slow submarine to be any competition to them.

Depends if you run above the sea or submerged ,you should also be able to run “decks awash” which is some way between the two.

I’m probably a bit skewed in my naval opinions because I literally only play RB EC.

In that gamemode, subs would work well, they could be fully surfaced for speed, fully submerged for stealth, and at snorkelling depth for a mix between the two.

And before anyone worries about subs not appearing until the last moment, diesel engines l, even at snorkel depth are loud, passive sensors would probably pick it up from a fair distance away (provided the sub is not in the baffles) and active would pick a submarine up easily (unless thermoclines are doing a thing and bouncing/refracting pings)

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Still way too slow compared to destroyers and mtbs.

It is worth noting that if a destroyer wants to detect a submarine with sensors, it needs to slow down.

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They can estimate its location when it is gonna be surfaced then catch up quickly and slow down when in close distance. With mtbs it will be even easier especially since mtbs dont have much else to do and can look for a subs for the rest of game. Now if plane spots a silhuette it is a game over.

In terms of EC… idk, maybe against bots they would be effective but it is really an absorbing gameplay. Also if you manage to reach spawns you could bully unsuspecting ships till you ran out of torps but that also isnt a good gameplay.

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Well, the classic submarine manoeuvre was to wait for the destroyer or frigate to pass overhead or otherwise within the minimum range of the active sonar, suddenly change depth and heading, and then slip away in the baffles as the depth charges explode, disturbing the water, and therefore making sonar far less reliable. The Wikipedia page for the hedgehog mortar says up to 15 minutes for the water to become settled enough for another depth charge attack although in war thunder (read naval EC RB) I’d have it somewhere between 1 minute and 5.

As a destroyer captain, what would you do next? Continue the hunt but risk expending the rest of your depth charges and exposing yourself to the fire of enemy ships. Or return to the cover of the friendly cruisers and battleships but risk them falling victim to the enemy submarine, because the big ships I’m fairly sure have extremely limited ASW capability.

Either way, submarines add alot more depth and complexity to the current naval meta of “highest number of fast firing big guns wins” it means large ships would have to be alot more careful about rushing forwards unsupported and smaller ships would have something to do besides getting shredded by bigger ships.

Edit: as for planes, if the plane misses it has to go re-arm, and that’s if the submarine doesn’t crash dive in time. And even then, more “modern” subs like the tango class are faster submerged than surfaced. (And even more modern submarines like the kilo class have strela and igla launchers in the tower).

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None of that really matters since we are playing a game not fighting in ww2. Nobody will wait 1 minute, you can spam depth charges as much you want till you get hits and crits. If anything last event was pretty telling of subs effectiveness - they could only really endanger bots.

As I said their impact on a game EC would be bare minimal and they won’t get implemented for this mode alone for sure.

Now in every other mode they would easy to hunt especially in near coastal environment.

Not seeing the complexity of slow torpedo launching rp pinhata tbh, sorry. Large ships especially on AB already are threatened by mtbs and fast, torpedo armed destroyers. Smaller ships have a place by being either a threat to large ships or a threat to mtbs.

Now subs would only be occasional event, if there would be enough people willing to swim for half of the round straight just to get either few occasions to launch torps (and probably see them miss because people do change direction) or get a torpedo boat/ destroyer stuck overhead and hide deep till the end of the round.

More coastal vessels please, subs are nice on events.

Tbh thats how combat goes in general btw.
I would argue navy has most room for different classes especially on mid tier since you can find mtbs, gun boats, frigates, destroyers and cruisers occupying way different weight classes and yet all having important roles that can change the outcome of the battle.

Be like playing the M26 Pershing in GRB at 7.7 : )

I’m not entirely sure how that’s relevant? Games can exist on an arcade to real axis & as warthunder is closer to real than its competitors, I see no reason why we should forgo a more realistic set of gameplay mechanics in this one area when compared to others.

Whilst interesting, the battle of the atlantic event fell short in a few critical ways for me, I had alot to say in the original feedback discussion but in short, the mechanics relating to sensors, sea conditions, & physical capabilities of vessels were far too oversimplified. I can go into further detail if you want but I’d rather do this over DM’s to avoid cluttering the thread.

The torpedoes themselves are far from slow, the british MKVIII could travel at 74kmh with upgraded versions reaching 84.5kmh. The US MK14 could reach 85kmh, the MK18 could reach 83kmh, the german G7a could do 81.4kmh.

The submarines themselves may not be fast but I’d argue they don’t need to be? MTB’s rely on their speed to get in torpedo range of large ships, submarines would rely on a combination of their ability to stay submerged, and their sensors (which could have it’s own depth between using passive sensors to stay hidden but take longer to get a good solution, or active sensors to take much less time but simultaneously give away its location to other vessels equipped with passive sensors) to get within torpedo range.

Hard agree here, things like the Leander class (Type 12I and versions/modifications of) is something that I not only support, but I’d say are necessary in all trees in to act as at least a basic ASW platform if/when submarines are added. (Even though the coastal trees for some nations are a right pain to grind)

I agree here as well but I am a bit confused as to how you can have this view yet be so hesitant towards submarines?

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because recent event showed that this realistic idea is far from wt reality. I see realistic submarine warfare as fun idea in games, but wt isnt suitable for that matter. singleplayer games are able to adapt this concept in way more fun way.

I think it comes down to the fact that wt navy is simplified in general. And thats a good thing, actually. Time constraint of 10-20minute battle with plenty of individual action does not allow for too many details to not become cluttered. There needs to be a balance between pace and time. More details require more focus and more time and this work well in small lobbies, with limited amount of single duels, which is not environment of wt.

also in this, time constraint would not allow for that.

I’m certainly waitning for leander and more coastal stuff for the brits.

I wouldn’t say hesitant, I just don’t see an environment for both sides.
Look at two examples: Golden Bay is a small map with close spawns. As a sub you will have enemy immedietely in torp range, and you can fire torps, submerge, reload, emerge, repeat. Covered by destroyers it makes you stationary platform of torps. you don’t have much room to fight or do anything else, and you will get kills on people who just spawned, are unlucky or blind.

Now lets take many of island based maps: Black sea, volkanic island or african gulf, destroyer side. To get your torps on target you will have to move behind your team for a good while before any opportunity appears. You cannot do anything within that time, as you dont have any other ability. In the meantime, if your team fails to cover you, small boats or a destroyer can easily overrun you. If you manage to get into position you can fire your torps with limited efficiency due to people constantly manouvering between islands.

Those scenarios arent any fun to neither side. I love interconnected gameplay of navy but subs seem to not interconnect with anything in wt reality. They dont pose any substantial threat to any class in particular and to every ship from mtb to destroyer they are very easy, almost risk free prey. They can sure hide, but hiding isnt gameplay and it is not fun long term.

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That’s entirely dependent on how gaijin implements submarines and their surrounding mechanics, imagine top tier jets without notching or tanks that instead of having individually modelled components, had only healthbars so it didn’t matter what you hit or if you got the first shot off, if your gun is smaller or your tank is less armoured, you’re going to be destroyed anyway.

Fun is subjective but as much as I like fast paced & frenetic action, I do also like to take a breath and approach a target methodically and patiently. Besides, playing against people is alot more fun than against bots.

Again, I play mostly RB EC so time constraints become a bit less of a concern when a battle can take up to 3 hours. As for normal naval RB, I don’t think vessels having to contend with thermoclines, baffles, sea state, ambient noise, and then making the appropriate choices adds “clutter”, I’d say it adds depth and more engaging gameplay.

again, naval RB EC player here but I’d beg to differ more generally, it wouldn’t be much more complicated for a submarine. It’d be a matter of selecting a tube through multifunction or through a tube cycling button (perhaps Q & E), making sure you have the right torpedo for the job. (You’d have the ability to choose which tube is pre-loaded with what torpedo), leading the torpedo and then firing. Hardly more complicated than a tank deciding use HESH on a light vehicle instead of AP.

That’s an issue more with the map than with the vehicle, you wouldn’t say that more modern tanks shouldn’t be added because there isn’t much room to fight in [Domination #1] Fire arc BR: 3.7-6.3.

Again, more of a map problem than a vehicle problem and it’s not like submarines can’t deal with manoeuvring targets, either through adding variance to their torpedoes by firing ahead of or behind the lead indicator, or with slower passive acoustic homing torpedoes.

Entirely up to how gaijin implements them, we can’t really assume how gaijin will put them in so threads like this one can serve greatly in telling gaijin what we do and do not want to see.

Well destroyers and frigates are built to counter submarines. I’d argue however that things like ww2 era battleships and cruisers are much easier prey for a submarine because such ships are big, slow, and far from agile and I’m fairly sure they didn’t have much beyond basic hydrophones. And by the cold war era where bigger ships had the anti submarine capability, submarines were carrying things from wire guided torpedoes to tube launched anti shipping missiles like the UGM-84 harpoon or the TASM/UGM-109B Tomahawk.

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You are drawing many poor comparisons to entirely different modes just to strawman, so don’t do that, submerged ship with torps isnt an advanced jet.

great, but wt doesn’t focus on slow paced highly simlike action, so again, better to seek it elsewhere.

again, subs need to work in main modes, EC is timed event

there is no time for depth. Normal navy battles lasted for hours and in wt they last for 15minutes. It is a design choice and cannot be lifted. You wont have time to look at your sensors if 6 people are actively trying to kill you. You need to make fast choices to make most points in limited time and also survive.

no, you wont have time to reach postion and fire torps. Something that mtbs have no problem with.

maps work fine for all other ships so then subs are those in problem.

as I said twice I think, mtbs outclass subs in that area.

In short and in repeat since those replies prolong themseleves:

  • subs are too slow for time constraint, since they need to get close to the target to fire “effectively”. they cannot do anything before reaching that spot.
  • main weapon - torpedo is unreliable in dynamic wt scenario, in RB almost impractical.
  • subs only pose danger to large ships that spawn far from them, while everybody else can dunk on them easily. MTBs already do the same role, while being 2-4 times faster and thus will always get to the best position first. MTBs with their limited armament and agility have also chance of fighting other ships, subs can only hide.
  • subs operate badly in near coastal maps which are main area in wt, open sea maps see point 1.

Ships shadowing subs excessively may present an easy targets to the subs teammates so may be additionally threatened if they don’t take evasive maneuvers since they may be going slow or on predictable pathing (due to needing to use hydrophones / sonar for target detection, tracking and Weapon release requirements, and traverse predictable routes for optimal employment of Anti-Submarine armament (Hedgehog, bomb thrower, Depth charge), until directed systems e.g. Weapon Alfa [RUR-4], or ASROC [RUR-5] turn up with postwar refits on destroyers & frigates, with the former already implemented on the USS Mitscher) out in open waters with little cover and so potentially be driven off.

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Exactly

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It was not my intention to strawman you, I’m sorry it came across like that.

My intention was to highlight how feature incomplete naval is, compared to other gamemodes.

You say submarine gameplay takes too long to be engaging, yet also don’t have enough time to add depth. Surely one or both of these can be fixed with submarine specific spawns and adding these gameplay mechanics no?

Good thing submarines can carry and launch multiple torpedoes at the same time, can have have torpedoes that detonate under the hull of ships causing major damage instead of being absorbed by the anti torpedo bulges, and can carry torpedoes with homing abilities.

Subs pose a danger to any vessel that doesn’t know they’re there or doesn’t expect them to be there. Higher BR naval matches where people almost universally spawn heavier or larger ships with few anti submarine abilities would find it extremely difficult to counter a savvy submarine captain.

An MTB gets shredded by any large ship that is expecting it, and even by large ships that don’t expect it but have their ai gunners on. An MTB would get their first, but would be shredded in the attempt. A submarine may take longer but it would survive the attack, and it would be able to set up an attack on another nearby ship because it is hidden by the water, not sitting in the open on top of it.

Submarines “hide” from ships in much the same way cats “hide” from their prey. They “hide” so they can get close and unleash a deadly attack.

Also, are you telling me hide and seek is not fun?

Which is why maps have BR ranges, I’m fairly certain that gold coast for example does not appear above 5.0, can you imagine if Hood or Scharnhorst could appear in the small, low tier coastal maps like gold coast?

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no worries man

I don’t think so, since if subs get dedicated spawn close to large ships they would only spam torpedos and reload, so no depth here really. To fully immmerse yourself in all the sensors and everything you need different pace, time of battle and reward system. Wt rewards kills, so expect people to play on the easiest line to get them.

torpedo is still a hit or miss weapon. If somebody pays attention or changes course frequently chances of hitting are slim. This can be minimised with getting close to enemy there goes this problem again…

I disagree, by using cover or long ranging torps they can be extremely hard to get for BBs.

No, if you are forced to hide for long time since you cannot counterattack a destroyer/frigate/mtb

again, on large maps you will spend majority of round not doing anything, just getting into postion, hoping mtbs are not already there, which differs heavily from pace of other ships. Unless you get special spawn, which will make it easy for you to get into that position and launch torps at enemy, something which they would not be able to actively counter attack. I think at both ends it creates very stale and uninteresting gameplay.

Yes but they would make Battleships less meta. Especially those who just camp at spawn and shoot.

In Naval EC, they will be kino, especially with convoy task.

Their low speed is nice balance for their deadly armament, even tho you dont chase ships with subs, you just wait for them to come to you…

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Just out of interest, how would you implement subs? what would their gameplay be like in your ideal circumstance? what mechanics would they need to contend with?