This was the oldest of the pinned threads in the old forum, time to start it again ! I’ll be populating here w/ the findings archived there in the coming days, in the meantime lets discuss one of the ever-fewer combat ship types not yet present in War Thunder !
28 Likes
I don’t think submarines should be added tbh. I talked about this a lot in the old forum. Maybe they’re inevitable, but I think they will be a mistake.
Ultimately, the issue I have is that we could end up with a class of ship which is invulnerable to large swathes of the enemy team (i.e. any ship which doesn’t have depth charges or other anti-submarine equipment), and they’ll be silently lobbing torpedoes at ships, many of which can’t do anything to counter them. Then you’ll have people saying “just spawn in another ship bro”. It won’t be particularly fun except for the submarine player. Even for the ships which do have anti-submarine capabilities, they are vulnerable to threats on the surface too, and yet they’ll probably have to drop everything to go after a submarine whenever one is slinking around the map.
18 Likes
Old threads:
My answer: please, don’t.
Look at World of Warships, how many more tools they have to balance the submarines (for starters: it’s an arcade game, so they don’t have to be concerned with realism) and how much of a cancer submarines are. Introduction of the submarines single-handedly accelerated the fall of the number of players in the game.
Subs will basically be an equivalent of dealing with CAS in ground mode, only much, much worse.
15 Likes
When they come i’ll have a great time trying to ram them all
5 Likes
I can imagine, that the addition of submarines would be as amazing as the addition of Drones.
But by saying this and thinking about it again, Gaijin will probably implement them in the future.
I’m only not entirely sure, if they will announce them.
;-)
It was fun, but it will continue being fun only if Gaijin implements it as a separate game mode.
4 Likes
One of the earlier submarine-related finds, and the first I’ll be migrating: the british Type M Mk.2 mine, launched via submarine torpedo tube. Appeared in update 1.97
I’m not really sure I understand what the contention is here, what would be the difference in countering submarine-launched torps from ones launched by surface ships ?
I can’t say that I’m especially familiar w/ the " World of " series, but this post did lead me to an article I believe was published around when they first introduced subs to their games. I’m wholeheartedly unimpressed by the consumable detection system they use ( used ?), but I also haven’t figured out how to format the findings related to how sub detection works in WT here yet. The other, easier to post ones will come first.
6 Likes
We already have Bomb Thunder. We don’t need Torpedo Thunder as well.
2 Likes
I personally don’t think submarines are that good of an idea to add, because while they could defiantly be countered but they could be difficult to do so since you actually have to go after it which involves you going out probably in a destroyer and will get shot and killed easily which ruins the point of such counters plus it’s not a very appealing idea since you have a limited amount of spawns, even if you went in something smaller you won’t do much better, maybe a ASW aircraft would work but that also requires that it isn’t under AA threat but you won’t have a sonar (probably) to find it.
Once you get to Cold War ships though submarines would be easy to kill that it may ruin the point in playing them when you involve homing torpedos and ASROC systems however Cold War submarines would make such counters less OP but would make everything a worse experience unless it was only Cold War ships.
The only reason submarines worked in the April fools event was because it was submarine on submarine combat with more advanced submariners that allow for more advanced torpedoes, but it still only explores such a concept in-game but not how they would actually fit, if you want an idea of what it would be like, imagine dealing with a Japanese ship that launched long lance torpedos at range, but now you can’t see or hit the ship that launched them, that’s what your asking for with submarines. (Also why is this topic tagged as Israel???)
1 Like
Because when someone is making a topic they need to choose from specific tag pool and can only choose 2. The machinery subsections sections only have nation tags. So Israel is as good as others.
1 Like
The Bliss-Leavitt Mark 9: designed w/ the intention of use on american Battleships, it would instead serve on their R- and S- class submarines
You’re the second person to have brought up difficulties w/ countering torpedoes as a potential issue in submarine/surface balance, am I missing something ? To use your scenario as basis, what abt the submarine makes their long-range Long Lance spread more dangerous than one from the usual surface-ship provider ?
That 's pretty much it atm, sorry to anyone who happened upon this thread hoping to exclusively discuss the submarines of the Israeli Navy - this thread 's scope is a little wider than that :)
1 Like
It’s not the torpedoes themselves I’m referring to (unless they add homing torpedoes but that’s another topic entirely), but the submarine which launches them. Basically, my point of contention is that there’ll be a submarine that you may not even be able to see, and even if you can see it, it’s very possible that you’ll be in a ship which can’t do anything to it - i.e. cruisers and battleships, even some destroyers. So, being unseen and/or invulnerable to you, they’ll launch spreads of torps at you and you won’t really be able to do anything about it.
Hello fellow Thunderers. I have no idea if Submarines are destined to come to our seas or not, but as a concept I like the idea. After all they are part of some of the most memorable WW2 battles, especially in the pacific theatre, so I’d be interested…
Reading this thread I find a lot of concern about countering submarines, while I personally thought a sub is not in a strong position, for example:
- Torpedoes are nice, but reload time and ammo capacity are serious limitations considering historical models (not so much for cold war subs from the 70ies of course)
- Deck guns are weak on subs, if they have to surface, they will be shelled away in no time (later cruise missile slinging subs are another challenge, but they can be shot down)
- yes you can shoot torpedoes from depth, but that does not mean you have a clear path to the target. It would require some thought about map design and the topographic of underwater ground, but it is unlikely that you can shoot a torpedo spread from your spawn and hit the other.
- In shallow water and coast areas may even be forced up by shallow ground to attack
- On wide open Oceans, especially in our short matches, submarines have another huge problem - they are slow compared to the other ships, really slow
- Especially coast maps are deadly, not because of destroyers but because of small craft. The small ship tree will have sub and mine hunters that are no joke for a u-Boat captain (e.g USS PC-815 (19439), USS PC461 class, or German Tethis Class Sub hunters (1973))
- and there are airplanes… in the beautiful waters off guadalcanal you can see a sub from a plane , hell you can even see them in the north atlantic… so in a match subs would be spotted quickly by destroyer sonar, sub hunters and planes. Suicide mission it seems…
This got long.winded sorry, just food for thought.
I still hope to sneak up to you on a nighttime map in the solomon islands in my KD6 ; )
10 Likes
wont mind seeing the Japanese I-400-class submarine with its planes in game would be nice to use. Along with several German and British Subs also, however Gaijin need to solve other problems first like the players who arent human players and are bots/script players before we can even think off adding new stuff.
Oh as they’re Subs they aren’t considered as Bluewater ships they would have to be added to the coastal line ups are they are considered as boats not ships.
2 Likes
I see, it 's my mistake on parsing your point.
I don’t really expect the counter-gameplay against sub-launched torps to be especially different from that which we currently employ against those launched by surface vessels. After all, it 's already the spreads that are unseen which have the greatest chance of success - the launch platform rarely has an effect in that regard.
It seems your issue isn’t regarding that though, I think you’re more worried subs not being engageable at all ? Esp. by the Bluewater fleet it seems, correct me if I’ve misread you again.
A combination of NF 's mission design and the physical characteristics of submarines seems to account for that: realistically they’re not fast enough to reach positions to threaten the Light/Heavy spawns or lanes-to-objective* while submerged, expect considerable time spent in match to be on the surface in order to attempt doing so as a result. Where they stay just as vulnerable to gunfire as the current corvettes and large torpedo-boats trying to do the same.
*except on [Encounter] setups, where everything w/ torps has a clear shot from the start.
Agree that homing torpedoes are likely a non-factor regarding this part of balance, unless we see that functionality activated on our current ships sometime in the near future. Then maybe those would be worth discussing, but until/unless that happens ? Nah.
To my knowledge, the capability of acoustic detection to generate a reliable firing solution while deeply submerged doesn’t appear until postwar. So the prewar and wartime subs which will likely appear first may not have even that capability, instead having to go up ( or atleast up scope ) to have their torpedo lead provided.
1 Like
Yeah, torpedoes themselves are iffy at best, so it’s not them specifically I’m concerned about.
As you said, one of the issues I have is that subs won’t be engageable at all by many ships in the game. Battleships, cruisers and even some destroyers lack any anti-submarine capability altogether, so the only thing they can really do is rely on their teammates (lmao) and hope the submarine doesn’t target them. People will say “just spawn another ship bro” and that’s kinda missing the point. Basically, I fear it will become an even more annoying version of CAS.
The other side is that even for ships which do have the ability to counter subs, they still have responsibilities and vulnerabilities on the surface too, so they’ll have to drop everything and chase submarines when they appear.
As for submarines surfacing, you’re right that they’ll need to surface, and they’d be extremely vulnerable when doing this, though the issue here is that submarines would effectively be a “feast or famine” mechanic, that is, if someone isn’t so good, they’ll get absolutely wrecked, whereas if someone is competent, they’ll just make the game hell on earth for everyone they come up against.
2 Likes
I can’t say whether subs would be in one of the existing research trees, or have their own as helicopters do separate from other aircraft. But it seems reasonable to expect their matchmaking spread to start and conclude somewhere similar to the Coastal 's range, since apart from the submersible ability it 's the boats present there which have the most similar capabilities to those we can expect from subs.
I’m still not sure I understand the point you’re trying to make, what characteristics of submarines would allow them to " make the game hell on earth for everyone they come up against " ?
Especially for them to do so in a CAS-like fashion, since a submarine 's mobility does not afford you the possibility of quickly locating and prioritizing targets through land cover nor utilize it 's third-dimension movement to attack from an impunitive position w/o the cooperation of the vessel being targeted. Instead, the sub must be on the surface to travel at comparable speeds to the less-speedy Bluewater ships - where you can be engaged in the same manner as they would employ against another ship of that tree. And we’re already aware of the limitations of the torpedo armament at range, which is where the sub must use them if they travel submerged for long periods.
I think there 's a specific situation you’re picturing that 's leading you to worry, but I haven’t figured out what it is yet. If you can, could you share it ?
3 Likes
That however can be said for battleships/battlecruisers. An incompetant Scharnhorst player dies instantly. A competant one is a big threat. Personally I think the game should award good players for doing well if they can get past skill level walls, as it’s a lovely reward and feeling of accomplishment when you really learn how to make a vehicle work effectively instead of dying quickly unless the enemy ignores you.
2 Likes
I agree. Torpedos ingame are very limited like they were irl (pattern following torpedos and homing torpedos don’t exist ingame). If they get added submarines will be the ultimate glass cannon game mode. You will be incredibly slow and need to surface to get close to battleship or dreadnought speeds, only top tier submarines like the U-XX1 Elektroboot which was the first submarine to both be fully submersable constantly and be faster underwater than above. Submarines are extremely fragile as they are just a pressure vessel with hydrodynamic body to let it move more efficiently through the water so they will die very very easily to ramming (incredibly rare and idiotic job on the sub players part), shellfire, bombs, torpedos and depth charges.
Some people will like the challenge of using a submarine that has incredibly limited weapons (maximum 4-6tubes which is less that light cruisers/torpedo boats) and limited armament to reload just like cruisers and torpedo boats. The only difference is that though they are as fragile as torp-boats or worse, they will be much much slower and less maneuverable leading to them possibly being seen by most as more cannon fodder.
But that is not for us to decide because if someone wants to play the long silent game where luck and skill rule all when leading torpedos on targets (which will get warned and either have enough time to dodge the weapons or maneuver out the way), whilst always have the giant threat of annihilation at any moment. I say let them.
The more players that come to the game the better it is. The larger the community and individual interests the better it is for the game as a whole.
It is the same for aircraft carrier players, or currently in warthunder bomber players like myself. We like to play a different style of game that though most may not understand that allure, will understand that people do enjoy it so to each their own.
4 Likes
Though not for lack of preparation, the 53-39PM and G7e(TIIIa) pattern-runners are in the files unused. The former even has a visual model of it 's own:
Plus all the ASW and ASUW homing types which currently lack that functionality.
Speaking of, the Type 21 is implemented in War Thunder Mobile. Since that game tends to share assets w/ ours( Tirpitz and battlecruiser Stalingrad present there appeared in WIP state here first, and our recently-added USS Lexington and HMS Illustrious did the reverse - were found in WIP there but were implemented here first ), it’ll likely have a similar appearence in WT to the one it uses there
It certainly looks like an interesting iteration of the torpedo-boat gameplay to me ! While getting torps to hit home can be frustrating at times, having something like this which can attempt these attacks while in open water for the price of significant loss of mobility seems a unique reversal of the lightning MTB shallow-water-attack.
3 Likes