Su-39: R77,R27,R73

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
89

Atleast the harrier has good acceleration and flight performance, thrust vectoring, and 4 good IR missles, and in ground RB it gets a thermal targeting pod and 4 10km fire and forget TV guided missles which is ideal for targeting SPAA.

Even then I’d still be open too the idea that the Harrier could go down too 11.3 but let’s be real here, the harrier at 11.7 is still pretty good in ground while also still being useful in Air RB too, or atleast alot better off than the Su-39, so even then the Su-39 could still receive air to air missles like R-73’s or R-27’s that wouldn’t break the game, and it also wouldn’t make the plane more OP in ground RB while giving it a chance to fight and stay competitive in air RB so it actually useful too the team and can actually be used to grind.

The fact that people are insisting this plane deserves to get shafted simply because it’s an attacker is a terrible mentality for game balance, and also ignores the simple truth that this plane was built to be multi role, hints why it could carry more missles IRL. Keep in minde I’m not asking for R-77’s as I don’t think the game is ready for those, but simply that it be given R-27’s so it can actually keep up with other planes at its BR.

Also your wating for the Su-39 to go up in BR? What world are you living in that makes the Su-39 OP? Even in ground RB it’s easy to deal with if your a competent AA player as the planes a bit of a brick especially with full loadout, and like you even admit, it’s just a worthless meat shield in air RB. I’m proposing these buffs too the plane so it can stay at its current BR, because if anything else it’s gonna go down due to its terrible prefromance in air RB.

2 Likes
90

The point is… is that it IS a ground attacker. Its designed for 1 thing. Its not an air superiority fighter. It will always struggle in ARB, if it ever doesnt, then it needs to go up in BR. Su-25, Su-39, A-10, heck even to a certain degree, the Harrier Gr7. These jets were not added for the Air to Air capabilities. They were added for their CAS abilty in GRB. If you want to fly them in ARB, then you will struggle. Its that simple. Giving it extremely strong missiles wont change much, you’ll piss off anyone fighting against, but still get instantly shot down, in fact maybe faster, as you will be considered a high priority threat.

Until such time we get seperate BRs for ARB and GRB. CAS aircraft will continue to have a hard time in ARB. My suggestion, if you dont want to use it in GRB (and I dont blame you there) go play air SB. You’ll have a lot more freedom to perform CAS, and its not a constant furball.

If you still want to advocate for giving the Su-39 missiles it doesnt need. Then I vote we give the Harrier Gr7 Aim-9M, it historically carried them, and would give a sub-sonic 11.7 jet with no radar or BVR missiles, more A2A power and help balance the matches

3 Likes
91

Screw that, add the GR.9 / AV-8B+ as a premium to the Britain, US & Italy and and watch them choke on
AIM-9X, AMRAAMs, Late model Mavericks / Brimstone’s , JDAM, APKWS II, AGM-122, CBU- 97 / -105, various Countermeasure pods and more.

Imagine adding that all at 11.7.

3 Likes
92

Oh yeah, that would be good. We already have the wrong targetting pod and AGMs on the Gr7 for “balancing reasons” and they have just admitted they’ve artificially capped the range on what we’ve got for balancing reasons. So Yeah, i’d take Gr9 with all that entails (which I am expecting to be a prem). would also take the Tornado Gr4 with Brimstones too.

Also dont forget the Gr7 had some pretty advance MAWS/ECM systems too, if the Su-39 gets something like that, so should the Gr7

93

The point is that it was specifically built to be a multi role plane and given the ability to fire air to air missles such as the R-77(which I agree the game isn’t ready for) and the R-27(a much more competitive missles for the BR given the plane shortcoming in flight prefromance) so your argument about it’s intended role is invalid as you don’t even appreciate that the plane was built to be able to preform the air to air role and only acknowledge it’s air to ground role, also the second big point is that this is a VIDEO GAME and specifically not DCS at that, not everything that’s a strike plane needs to suffer, and the vast majority of strike planes already in game are alot more competitive in air RB than the Su-39 is. The Su-25K is actually a decent plane at 10.0 as it has mid flight prefromance but great missles and countermeasures making it an overall enjoyable plane.

4 Likes
94

I’m a keyboard only kinda guy and simply put Sim inst my jam, I’d like to be able to enjoy all planes in air RB and shouldn’t have to switch game modes to make my vehicle even remotely profitable. I actually have fun using my Su-39 in ground RB, I finde it a very good CAS plane despite some of its shortcomings in flight prefromance and lack of thermals, but in Air RB it’s and absolute dud, with no real ability to do anything other than snag a dumb pilot in a head on. Hints why I suggested R-27’s as it would give it increased lethality in Air RB and make it somewhat competitive, but it could stay at the same BR so it still faces top tier SPAA.

95

Wow, maybe your finally understanding where I’m coming from then? Yessss!!! Let’s balance other attackers while we’re at it! Let’s lower the BR of the A7’s, let lower the early Su-17’s, and help out other overtired or under preforming strike jets while we’re at it!

The Harrier GR.7 was pretty good when it first came out, and all thaings considered is still a decent vehicle, but it definitely feels a bit long in the tooth in Air RB with only 4 Aim-9L’s so I think it should either go down in BR or like you suggested get some Aim-9M’s.

I hate how in the community everyone comes off as jaded that they feel there nation is held back so therefore other people should suffer like they did, it’s a terrible and childish mentality and just hurts everyone. Two wrongs don’t make a right guys

I also hate the argument that “this is a strike plane therefore it’s ok if it’s borderline unusable at its own BR in air RB” for multiple reasons. first is that this isn’t a hardcore sim, and typically we want to balance planes so that there viable in both air and Ground RB and viable to use in either game mode. Second, which is very relevant for tech tree vehicles, how am I supposed to grind a plane that isn’t even competitive in air RB? If you’ve ever taken a plane out in Ground RB(which takes some effort to begin with to make sure that’s even possible) you’ll notice that you make very little income for your plane. By having strike planes that suffer in air, it encourages people to have to resort to GE to get the modules the want in order for their plane to even be useful in Ground RB. And finally, the argument dosnt even make since for the Su-39 as IRL the whole point of the plane was that it was multi role and could also take on enemy fighters, so by this logic you should still be ok with it atleast reviving some of its radar guided missles…

3 Likes
97

I remember Grom teasing this premium and hyping it up, and when it was announced everyone whined thinking it was gonna be OP, and then people like me were disappointed when we realized the Su-39 was going to be locked behind a paywall and then had all of it cool weapons choices withheld without any comments if it will ever receive them in the future. Now that the update has been out for a bit I only see them at all in Ground RB and very rarely do I see them in air RB, not that they last long, so yeah I have to wounder if it just did really poorly and wounder what if anything will happen too it done the road.

@Smin1080p are the devs aware or concerned about the current state of the Su-39/Su-25T in air RB? As currently it seems to suffer heavily.

2 Likes
98

I don’t want to hear it, the Harrier GR.7 is a excellent plane and in my opinion it’s one of the best overall in-game. I’ve had an amazing experience in the plane so I don’t want some random guy to downplay it, not because I’m bias but because it’s EXTREMELY good as a plane.

Comparing it to the SU-39 is stupid, just because the SU-39 has “better” missiles doesn’t make it a fair comparison. A better comparison is the SU-39 and Tornado GR.1 in experience but in the case of the SU-39 it’s much worse.

Moving it to 11.7 without any new addition of ordinance especially like R-73’s or R-77’s is a suicidal move to their reputation, realistically it will either get R-73’s or R-77’s. Most YouTubers magically all agree that this thing is utter sh** so people who don’t actually own the plane shouldn’t have much of a say besides a opinion in this matter.

Sample Videos:

1 Like
99

Su-39 is a premium ground attack aircraft. Why does it HAVE to be good in ARB. Does it make tanks go boom in GRB? I Assume so, you arent calling for better AGMs. As you pointed out, Tornado Gr1 sucks in ARB at the moment, it has a higher rating than most Mig-23s and is so handicapped (tiny CM count, wrong missiles, missing features, etc) , its actually painful. But that doesnt matter, its job is to drop bombs on bases, not dogfight Migs.

So giving the Su-39 significantly better missiles isnt going to change anything. The only reason I reckon its 11.3 is because its premium and soviet. If it was anything else, it would be 11.7. Again, RB rating is decided by a jets performance in BOTH GRB and ARB. This is why some jets have wierdly high BRs. Looks at Gr7 and giving it better missiles, would just result in a higher BR.

but I guarantee its BR is 100% based upon its GRB performance not ARB perforrmance

At the end of the day, it IS a ground attack aircraft, that was what it was designed to do. It might have had some enhanced A2A capabilities, but it was never designed for an air superiority role, only improved defensive capability.

But what exactly do you want, the ability to take the Su-39 into an ARB match and walk away with multiple kills every single match with little effort? To be able to 1v1 a Tornado F3 or F-16?

If you want to dogfight an F-16 or F-14 or something else top tier. then you should be in the Mig-23 or Mig-29 an actual air superiority fighter. If the Su-39 EVER got the point where it “could” actually take on top tier jets in air to air combat with the kind of ease you seem to be advocating for, then it means it has extremely powerful missiles. Such as what the A-10 and Su-25 are like with all aspect missiles at a BR where most jets dont even have CMs. and I think we can all agree, that sucks.

So no, I dont think giving the Su-39 such powerful missiles that it would allow, what is a slow, subsonic ground attack aircraft, the ability to go toe to toe with top jets. That would just break the game, especially considering its a premium.

So prehaps instead, advocate for seperate BRs for aircraft in GRB and ARB. That way for GRB it can be at 11.3-11.7, what is likely right for its CAS ability, and then 10.7-11 for ARB, I’d guess about right for its A2A ability.

The Harrier Gr7 has an RB rating 11.7 and its closest equivalent is the Sea Harrier FRS1, which has an RB rating of 10.7 which I think this is about right. So its a full BR higher, purely because of CAS power.

So with this division in BR, you’d see many aircraft, not just top tier jets, drop maybe as much as a full BR in ARB, whilst remaining at a fair and reasonable BR in GRB. It is the ONLY solution that would actually work. Because you cannot balance jets by giving them capabilities so far beyond anything else in any match that they dominate, which considering the Su-39 is a 2008 jet, is exactly what would happen if you gave it 2008 missiles. It quite literally would have missiles 20-30 years ahead of anything else in the game.

3 Likes
100

Because this is a video game and we like to balance vehicles, and buffing it’s air to air capabilities wouldn’t affect its performance in its air to ground roles and help make it more competitive overall as a plane.

I’m really trying to understand your logic here but there dosnt seem to be any too grasp into…

This is a vehicle, purpose built to be multi role and have both air to air and air too ground features, it’s currently missing some of its best air to air features and it’s suffering immensely because of that in air to air while it does fine in air to ground. If we give it better air to air capabilities that it had historically then it does better in air RB which is where it’s most useful as a premium, and it’s not like giving it better missles is gonna make it suddenly OP in ground RB.

I’m really not grasping why you want to hold to back? What are you afraid of? That it might actually be an enjoyable vehicle? Like your logic just didn’t hold up because you want it to only be good at ground striking because that’s what it was supposed to do historically but then you also don’t want it too have better air to air missles even tho it historically used them??? Pls make it make sense man. It sounds like you just want this plane to be unusable in Air RB for no good reason.

1 Like
101

Bro how would that break the game??? It’s a fat slow Su-25 that not potentially can carry 2 R-27’s of we give it a modest buff. If you think this suddenly make it’s the equal of a F-16 or Mig-29 then pls explain too me why the F-4S is at a lower BR then the tomcat or F-16 since it still has capable radar and Sparrows.

Giving the Su-39 better missles would just allow it to actually be usable at 11.3 instead of just dead meat. This is a simple balance request and yet your acting like it would end the world.

2 Likes
102

It is a modified Su-25, I cannot find a single reference anywhere to it being a “multi-role” jet. Its not, thats BS. It just has enhanced defensive capability, It was NEVER designed to actually fight other aircraft, just defend itself should it be attacked. Though by all accounts its radar was more intended for its ASMs and other ground attack weapons, but could be used for BVR missiles.

I main britain, there isnt a single top tier jet, that doesnt have some MASSIVE handicap

FGR2/FG1 should have Aim-9L

Tornado F3 should probably be at 11.0 or should have AMRAAM and Aim-9L/i or Aim-9M

Harrier Gr7, should have Sniper pod instead of TIALD pod, far more advanced AGMs, Aim-9Ms, and list of other things like Maws, better RWR, etc etc (and quite frankly, should not be at 11.7 in ARB, especially since the 9L nerfs)

Tornado Gr1, should have Aim-9l/i or Aim-9M, it should have 20x it current CM count, it should have ECM, it should have ground mapping radar

By all accounts, the Su-39 is just a little underpowered, you are flying a sub-sonic, ground attack aircraft, with some of the most reliable IR missiles in the game and you expect it to just be able to go toe to toe with anything? Why? The su-39 by all accounts is a solid CAS aircraft, its loaded with cool features and weapon systems. But its first Soviet jet added in a LONG time that isnt immediately META in every gamemode, and you aren’t happy with that fact.

AGAIN, if its really that broken, then dont advocate for slapping extremely powerful missile onto it, it wont help. Advocate for seperating BRs in ARB and GRB and get its BR dropped down to 10.3-10.7 instead

But lets for moment look at the options

R-27R, wont make much of difference in my opinion, and is the only option that wouldnt immediately break the game.

R-27ER, totally OP missile, anything with R-27ER needs to be at least BR12

R-77, would also be totally OP, and again, instantly move up to Br12. Giving it Fox-3 would make it exactly like what the A-10 and Su-25 are like at 10. They’d just shoot everything down with ease and it would be boring for everyone else (Especially in Downtiers)

R-73, maybe, but I fear it would be too strong, I swear I saw somewhere, or heard something about them testing R-73s, not sure if it was the Mig-29 or Su-39, but they almost immediately removed them from the jet in testing because they were OP, far beyond anything any other nation had. I don’t expect to see R-73s on anything until we also see Aim-9Ms begin to be rolled out onto various jets.

So, if you really believe that a pair of R-27Rs, the ONLY option, that I dont think would see the Su-39 immediately moved up to 12 or so totally break the game that it would suck for everyone else, will so magically transform the Su-39 into a good air superiority fighter, fine, keep arguing for that. But quite frankly its not going to make any difference. It not an air superiority fighter, and quite frankly, there are MANY jets that struggle in ARB for no reason other than they were NOT DESIGNED FOR IT. Tornado F3 for example. Sucks, it was an interceptor, that is what it was deisgned to do, not furball in a WW2 style gun fight. Does that mean we should give the Tornado F3 AMRAAM and ASRAAM just to make up for its lack luster turn performance?

3 Likes
103

its a 2008 jet by all accounts. Fine, lets give it everything you want, but lets give Britain EF Typhoons with AMRAAM and ASRAAM, because historically by 2008 thats what we had. Its only fair.

104

Thats a poor argument. There are so many jets that suck right now at 11.3 and quite frankly I consider dead meat, that could and should 100% get missile upgrades. but none of them will ever see such uppgrades. FGR2 for example, had Aim-9Ls, its stuck with Aim-9Gs and will likely never ever get that upgrade

Its a ground attack aircraft, that is what an Su-25, which is what the Su-39 is a modified version of was designed to do, provide close air support. It was NEVER designed to charge into NATO lines and take on (considering its a 2008 ish jet) EF Typhoons, F-16, F-15s, F-22, Etc, Etc. Defend itself, sure, but only where its escorts failed.

The issue I have, is that the missiles you advocating for might have been historically carried by the Su-39, but its again, an early 2000s jet. Many of those missiles it carried are 10, 20 maybe even 30 years more advanced than any other nation. We have seen time and time again, soviet jets being completely and utterly overtuned. Yak-141 and Mig-29 Carrying R-27ERs for example is a classic case of this. They should NEVER have recieved that missile and the results speak for themselves. The Mig-29 is by far the best A2A jet in the game, and nothing really comes close, especially in a BVR fight. and Im fed up with it again ONLY being soviets that get anything good these days.

Im a britain main, and even our latest jets, barely compete and are such a shadow of what they should be IRL, that its actually kinda insulting.

Tornado Gr1 for example:

Missing, Sky Shadow ECM Pods

Should have 56x Flares, and 1200x Chaff, currently has 56 total CMs

Should have Aim-9L/i or Aim-9M

Should have Ground mapping radar

Should have ALARM

Should have ASMs

Should have advanced bombing aids

By all accounts, the Su-39 is a fine jet. It has the best AGMs in the game, it has IRCM (first of any jet), it has ground mapping radar (first of any jet). It has so many interesting loadouts and equipment, it by all accounts, looks like a solid jet in almost anything, EXCEPT, ARB. If I played soviets and bought this jet, I’d have fun with it in SB. So instead of complaining about what you dont have, enjoy what you do have. Trust me, from someone who plays the most neglected nation in the game right now, a nation that is boarderline unplayable at most BRs due to nerfs, missing features and other… issues. It could be a LOT worse.

(Heck, the Sea Harrier FRS1 added 9 months ago, still has placeholder radar and cockpit and its not likely going to be until maybe July, but I suspect more likely September update that those will be finally fixed)

Again, it has a BR in RB based upon its CAS power, in GRB, and of course its too high in ARB, the same as the Tornado Gr1 and same as the Harrier Gr7. Same as many, many aircraft in this game.

3 Likes
105

@Morvran Personal I think dev no add AIM-9M or AIM-9L/i sidewinder, ALARM early long range anti-radiation missile and carrying 2x BOZ-107 pod (so 56 flares & 1,200 chaff total) on Tornado GR.1 in tech tree until consider Tornado GR.4

But at least Tornado GR.1 might get Sky Shadow ECM Pod & Ground mapping radar

106

I think the CM issue is more game limitations and in another thread, I did see what could be interpretted as hints to a CM overhaul ( which is really needed) but the rest of it I do agree. I suspect we will have to wait till Gr4.

107

Since this plane is capable of carrying better air to air armament, it should be given something a bit more capable, 11.3 seems to be a bit high with only two R-60M.

It’s price tag almost isn’t even justifiable with its current performance.

1 Like
108

Look man, I get that there are other strike jets and even nations as a whole that get the shaft, I’m not denying that or justifying that either, but like I said two wrongs don’t make a right, so that isn’t an argument I wanna hear. I’m trying to argue in good faith here but I keep going in circles because a lot of y’all who are against the Su-39 getting a buff for air combat seem to insist that the plane deserves to suffer for some pointless reason or another that doesn’t make any sense for war thunder, or you try and bring up how other jets suffer, and I’d say if you really feel like those jets suffer then why don’t you go make a post about them instead of making poor arguments on here about why the Su-39 also needs to suffer. Giving the Su-39 missles that will help make it competitive at 11.3 air RB isn’t going to change the way it plays in ground RB and will improve it’s experience in air RB. This is such a simple request and has happened with so many other planes so pls don’t bring some whataboutism into this thread to justify it’s unnecessary suffering in air RB, at this point it sounds like your position is that you want it too be as hard as possible for stile plane players to enjoy their airplanes in air RB for some reason that has no bearing on how war thunder works and I’m getting tired of arguing in circles over the same faulty points y’all keep making to hold this plane back.

2 Likes
109

Tbh I’ll I want are some somewhat better missles for the Su-39 to give it a bit more of an edge in air to air combat, Im not asking for it too be made OP, just something simple perhaps like R-27R’s so it has the ability to reach out and touch some jets if it needs too(still screwed in a dogfight)

2 Likes