If you want, you could DM me a couple of your concerns and I can relay it to Hadi in the PatreonChat.
To put disclaimer first, I dont even have statshark account, let alone live game viewer. I also agree with the security concerns. With that out of the way:
Live game viewer just displays processed information that is otherwise accessible through built-in ingame functions of right-clicking ontom someones profile in leader board and selecting “View profile”.
Theoretically, user can do the same with excel sheet, it will be just time consuming and impractical.
Not even the excel sheet is neccesary, theoretically you can assess someones performance by just glancing at their service record sorted by winrates and kills to death (without calculating KD ratio).
Ergo data provided by live game viewer cant be exactly called external information if its based solely on information gaijin themselves already provides and is accessible in game.
As such, can it be really argued that it disrupts intended gameplay experience?
Except this more likely than not refers to collection of data such as login credintials and credit card information, not player stats displayed publicly, which is clear by the “Attempting to gain unauthorized access to the Service(s) or another User’s Account”
If people login to statshark with the use of their warthunder account that is another matter entirely and could fall under this statue, but simple stat collecting likely isnt against ToS as that data is made public.
If any data collection would be considered against ToS, community tracking of SL lootboxes percentages would be bannable offense on WT forums, even moreso than stat tracking since unlike stats, your drops arent public.
Such information is however deliberately accessible through the in-game scoreboard. If gaijin didnt intend for players to look at other players profiles during a game, such option wouldnt be there in the first place.
Statue 3.2.5 is more likely than not THE strongest statue upon which Gaijin can legally act against Statshark as a whole, since they indeed are commercializing part of the game (player data, even if they are public) for money.
Exactly why you might want to use it with caution and not trust anything by default when it comes to critical information.
Don’t have sensitive windows open when playing ? Same applies to pretty much anything that needs to fiddle with your screen in order to function properly.
When you handle critical information like those from a banking account, you should already be cautious and only have necessary programs open.
Uuuuu, then you might be ableto answer one of the questions we had here - did you have to agree to some sort of ToS to use the live game viewer?
Same, at the very least I do a quick look over the enemy team myself to see if I see any squadrons that I know to be good.
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I am fan of the website, mainly for its display of global/personal statistics but i have to agree with many concerns raised in this thread. Specifically in regards to the moderation when it comes to misuse of data for the purpose of griefing and harrassment and the collection/storage of data collected by the SharkClient.
I mean sure, more power for you, but I asked about the ToS specifically.
The points brought up by @_Poul are definitely sth Hadi has to address. Especially since its a paid for application, unlike before.
I feel theres some misunderstanding. My question was whenever YOU YOURSELF had to check some “i agree with ToS” on statshark whenever you started using their live game viewer, ie. agree to statshark ToS; not whenever is any of the statsharks action against gaijins ToS.
First of all, it’s completely fine to have different opinions on the same topic. I just wanted to share my perspective.
Okay, let’s think about this for a moment. Are you saying that a player can realistically see the enemy SR1 rating inside the game during a battle by opening individual user profiles? Do you really think someone can open 15 random profiles in the middle of a fight and calculate SR1 ratings manually for each player based on all their stats? That is clearly external information, and the process is effectively automated when using this application.
Sure, technically you could copy all the data into Excel and calculate it yourself, but I would actually love to see how much time that would take in a real battle for 15 other players. The point is, the system is intentionally designed so that gathering this information in real time is practically impossible without automation. That’s why the app gives a clear advantage.
Even if you use websites like StatShark, it still takes time. It is not fully automated and cannot run in the background while you are actually playing the game. You still have to manually gather and process the information, so it doesn’t provide the same instant advantage that an application gives.
Outside of the general TOS on their website there is no extra TOS that I had to agree to when it comes to the application itself.
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no since SR1 rating isnt something that is displayed by the profile, is amalgation of several statistics.
realistically, no. theoretically, yes.
As I said
Moreso you have two people in this very thread that have experience with doing so, just few comments above:
Ergo it can be done. Its just not practical.
Stats are accessible in game through bult-in feature; clearly indicating intended design choice on Gaijins part. Only real “external” information is the SR1 rating, which is calculated from the players stats anyway, and SR1 rating isnt neccesary to determine whenever someone is good - built-in service record is more than sufficient.
i dont need SR1 rating to determine if someone with 8k battles in Spitfire with 80% winrate and 10k kills to 200 deaths will mop the floor with me or not.
as mentioned previously, two people in this very thread attested to do this to some extent; and again SR1 isnt neccesary.
Im not denying having the information more easily accessible does not give advantage; but again the information it does process is aviable to everyone in-game by design.
IF live game viewer gave you not only information on how good someone is but also which vehicle they are in, THAT would be clearly an unfair advantage. However to my knowledge it does not do that.
In current form, its more of a gray area rather than clearly black and white.
I don’t want to argue about this, because it simply doesn’t make any sense.
If you believe this app is fine and doesn’t break any ToS, that’s fine for me. I just wanted to point out some aspects that, in my opinion, are questionable. You can, of course, have a different opinion.
After all, it’s Gaijin who makes the rules and determines what is legal and what is not. It’s definitely not up to me, and it’s not up to you.
I don’t understand how anyone could claim that this app doesn’t provide any advantage. But I don’t need to understand your way of thinking. If this app didn’t give any advantage, no one would use it in the first place, not even mention paying for it. You yourself admit that it saves a lot of time and that it would be basically impossible to calculate all the same information manually during the duration of a battle. Yet you still claim it doesn’t give an advantage?
Using the same logic, I could say that an application that reads the screen to show enemy positions in an easier-to-see format is fine too. After all, it’s just using internal game information that everyone technically has access to, right? Anyone could analyze each pixel themselves with their own eyes, without any application. The app just makes it faster and more convenient, but according to your logic, that wouldn’t count as an advantage either.
Here’s a theoretical question: if Gaijin finds the usage of this app illegal and bans accounts that used it, who should these players blame? Gaijin, or the people who told them it was completely fine to use it?
never claimed so.
never claimed so either.
difference being gaijin did not intend for player to have such information (outside of thermals i guess). however being able to see stats of player during the game is very much intended design and in no way shape or form you cant claim otherwise. the “view profile” exists. service record can be accessed through it.
Since the advantage provided by live game viewer is ultimately in the gray area and does not provide obvious against the rules advantage like cheating softwares… Gaijin should be blamed, for not taking the stance sooner.
if gaijin wakes up tommorow and decides that from now on use of said app is illegal, thats perfectly fine.
if gaijin wakes up tommorow and decides that from now on use of said app is illegal and on top of that bans people who used the live game viewer, that is in violation of the lex retro non agit principle. Sure, gaijin isnt a state makign laws, its private company so same principle does not apply; however it is something to keep in mind.
Hadi and I know how to reach each other if we have stuff to talk about, but thanks. :)
For the record about three hours ago on the Discord he confirmed that the automated permablock of players who use this new form of the service and then leave matches early because of what it shows them about the other side will continue. It’s time-based, not subjective, punch out too early (just the one time he has said before) and the app won’t ever work for you again. I imagine you still have to cancel your sub yourself though :)
Again I would suggest a better FAQ would be of value here.
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pretty much what I suspected, however from my experience id advise them to be careful with the 3.2.5, they are no taking maps sure, but they are processing game data and then asking for money to access it. ultimately not my concern, as im not part of statshark team.
I’m not talking about an application that shows all enemies on the entire map (which is impossible anyway). I’m referring to taking information that is already visible on the screen and presenting it in a much easier and faster-to-read form. Would that be considered a form of cheating? And if so, how is that different from what the StatShark app does?
Just to be clear: I’m not saying that people will automatically be banned for using the StatShark app. But in my opinion, it clearly functions as a small cheat. It automatically provides information that is otherwise much harder to obtain. Players can then use this information to assess things like the strength of specific opponents or the overall strength of a team. Regular players don’t have easy access to this information, so to me, this gives a clear advantage.
The only debatable point is how serious a form of cheating this represents. It’s probably a very low-impact form of cheating, but imagine a player being targeted by a group of others at the start of a battle, simply because the app flagged them as the biggest threat. That certainly alters the normal game experience for that player.
I don’t think Gaijin can be blamed here. Using software in this grey area is a choice the player makes knowingly. By using this app, you are intentionally gaining an advantage over players who don’t use it. That responsibility falls squarely on the user.
At the same time, I hope that Gaijin will make an official statement regarding this app.
