Why not just reduce the spread from 3 down to 2?
There’s no need to re-invent the wheel.
Moving every problematic vehicle up by 0.3 / 0.7 for each BR would solve the same issue, and that would only increase the max BR range to something like ~16.0-18.0. 40.0 is way too extreme because no matter how many more vehicle you add, there is going to be (at most) ~6 different vehicles you could be facing. And then having 40.0 with 0.1 increments would mean ~400 different BRs, and so even with keeping a +/- 1.0 BR range, you’re going to only see one or two vehicles with similar BR within a 1.0 BR difference, and would still make the queue times immense.
Going to be fun waiting for 7 hours in the queue to play 29.2 BR with 0.3 spread.
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jCO9aU32Mg
^Me when its been 6 hours in the queue.
Pz IVs accelerate far slower than M4s, T-34s, or Chi-Tos
The BR difference is justified. The M-51 is hardly a stable platform, the gun does all the work. I’ll see how they compare once i get my hands on the STA-series. The M-51 is a bit overtiered imo, but putting it lower wouldn’t solve it’s fundemental flaws, it should have stayed at 6.0 but it’s not a big deal. The STA-3 and Type 61 have the added benefit of range-finders, which prove extremely useful on many maps, especially with pre-ranging.
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ST_A 1/2 take some time to learn,but the gun is great,the velocity is lacking tho and the 15x sight dosent help but just play them as snipers/lights
Because while 0.7 spread will help somewhat, I plainly see the whole game is badly overcompressed to such a degree that 0.7 spread will not really fix things all that much - it’ll be only a little less painful.
Thus instead I propose how to spread things out enough so that the true problem is permanently gone - full surgery on the BR system instead of a mere painkiller.
There would initially be some barren spots, but now there would be plenty of space to add all sorts of new vehicles that aren’t copy-paste, which is the main thing Snail seems to be good at.
I personally do not care if I am only seeing say 2-3 different vehicles per nation as my opposition if all of those limited options are actually competitive and not just filler you rarely see. For example, vehicles like the Sturer Emil, the SU-57B, or any other “odd duck” sort of machine that you personally know is in fact good yet rarely gets used for one reason or another.
That is partially why I suggested lowering your own BR spread as an optional feature for premium account users. If you choose the smallest BR spread and aren’t getting a game, it’s your own damn fault and you thus are incapable of complaining without humiliating yourself in the process.
In my experience not that much worse. And having very potent guns (especially with APCR being restoratively buffed) paired with their relatively small size would make them plenty competitive if they were on environments where they could actually make use of their long range firepower. They’re shorter than Shermans and Chi-Tos, now reload just as quickly as Shermans, with pretty damn good firepower.
You’d need almost double the number of vehicles to flesh out each 1.0 BR bracket. There’s not enough vehicles currently to make it not feel stale in a 1.0 - 40.0 range.
That’s the thing. It’s not going to be 2-3 different vehicles per nation, but rather 1 maybe 2 vehicles per nation (if you’re lucky).
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if anything i think the M36 B2 is undertiered has zero reason to still be 5.7 should be 6.0
it was a huge menace at 6.0, how is it overtiered anyway?
Probably described why earlier, but here’s the reasons…
- Poor gun handling
- Poor armor - can be penned by pretty much everything - and that’s on the downtier
- Poor mobility - has almost no reverse, so if it doesn’t one-shot it’s target it’s a sitting duck
- Only ammo is HEAT - no AP, no APHE and not even APCR. Good luck on any map with trees or cover.
- Doesn’t even have a .50 cal like every other Sherman-based tank above BR 5.0
it’s a big (tall), slow glass cannon. The only thing it has is pen.
best heat of the BR tho works fine if you can manage to shoot first
It has pretty much better elevation and rotating than Pershing.
It has in fact very strong turret mask
I doubt it doesnt catch up with Pershing. But the reverse is in fact really bad
Which isnt a bad thing as it has VERY good HEAT
Huh? It does.
Okay, so, we have its pretty much american copy at 6.0 which has Pershing turret (offering closely same level of protection) which has even worse mobility and lower pen cannon, with APHEs yes but still doesnt punch through Tiger 2.
And its 6.0, no way the M51 is worse than that.
And even if we compare it to other HEAT slingers, bunch of them are 6.7 with worse HEATs and protection.
Assuming there’s nothing to trigger it before it hits target.
Pershing is the M26 = 6.7
BR aside the M51 has slight advantage in rotation but worse gun depression.
If you meant the T25 = 6.3 …
Same as above
The only decent protection M51 has is the rectangular mantle
Guns on lower tanks like Pz 4 H or Chi-To can nuke it from front pretty much anywhere else. (and it has the typical cupola weak spot)
Guns like the Panther 75mm can even kill it through the mantle.
Any hit, with a decent gun, can nuke the M51 from the front.
Gaijin’s own description…
“extremely weak armour; most times, the vehicle will be destroyed from a single hit”
M51 Forward= 38 Reverse= 5 hp/ton= 11.5
T25 Forward= 50 Reverse= 50 hp/ton= 13.1
M26 Forward= 48 Reverse= 16 hp/ton= 12
It’s slower than the M26 which has a lot more armor.
The M51 pen is overkill for it’s BR. Sure it can pen the UFP of a Tiger 2. But so can HEAT rounds with 300mm pen (see ST-A1).
With only HEAT it struggles on maps with forests/jungles/urban clutter. There are plenty of maps like this.
The TT version does not. it has 2x m1919A4
You mean the T26?
I don’t suggest it’s worse than the T26. They are comparable, so they could both be 6.0.
If I was starting Israel from scratch and was offered the choice of T26 or M51 at 6.0, I’m taking the T26, since it offers a lot more flexibility with APHE and .50 cal.
And as I have said for years at this point - truly balancing vehicles like this is impossible unless the underlying mechanics of HEAT get the overdue rebuff they badly need. Real HEAT is devastating enough that no sane tank crew surviving a penetration by it would remain in their vehicles.
At minimum HEAT needs a much more generous postpen cone of 45 degrees (for comparison’s sake solid AP is up to 60 degrees, I also propose APCR and APDS have this same rebuff). At maximum HEAT could just outright be considered to overpressure anything it penetrates from the Mach 25 sound blast of the jet entering the tank, a blinding flash, and god knows what toxic gases made from the thing pushing through the armor.
The sensitivity to clutter is frustrating but generally historically correct. But if the round type did real damage upon penetrating something successfully, that sensitivity would be plenty tolerable.
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Yes, i made it Pershing to show that even higher BR machines dont usually have better gun handling
Well, to be fair it does, however it’s not the IS-2 gun depression either.
Yes, im not arguing about that. I just mentioned it has a VERY, VERY strong mask that tanks even Panthers pretty well.
Amd that should be like that if we consider its firepower!
T25 never outruns M51 due to poor transmission, its like the slowest tank at the rank.
Its not that much power difference then? I dont see much M26es rubning 50 kmh.
Yes, and both STAs are pretty much the same techs except weaker gun mantlet. They are 6.3-6.7 material at the very least.
Fair point.
M4/T26
Correct.
As we are off-topic I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Honestly I don’t think you’re off-topic. In concept the comparison between the ST-A1/A2, M36B2, M-51 Super Sherman, and other awkward machines cut from the same cloth is all really spelling out the exact same issue - you cannot really “balance” a machine with high penetration but postpen so low that the round is a total crapshoot whether it works or not.
Hence why I have long since settled on the idea that everything without question needs to do significant postpen damage, at minimum a 45-degree-wide spall cone, if not more. We have seen what happens otherwise for years now:
- HEAT/APDS/APCR/HESH dispensers infest tiers they have no business being a part of, making playing heavy armor an exercise in frustration.
- Simultaneously those same vehicles themselves are frustrating to play because they often struggle to kill anything.
But what baffles me is that people playing either these sorts of vehicles or the heavy armor rendered sluggish pincushions would rather go argue with each other than recognize the true scope of the problem and focus their efforts on demanding the entire concept of low-postpen rounds is done away with for good.
Well no, the issue is that if they are moved any higher you start running into stabilized MBTs. At the moment HEAT-FS has perfectly fine damage. It’s a compression issue.
No it does not. Real HEAT is not a laser beam. The jet itself splatters somewhat upon entering the vehicle. Chunks of the tank’s own armor spray in a fairly wide cone. The jet itself comes with a deafening Mach 25 sound blast and blinding flash and noxious fumes - for all intents and purposes “sound overpressure” that should render any tank it penetrates totally knocked out.
And even IF it’s “technically realistic” by some chance, unrealistic APHE is the standard all other rounds are being compared against, so in order to make other rounds relevant (given that players voted down a realistic postpen spall pattern on APHE), all other ammo types probably should be buffed to slightly more than the real rounds did.
In short what I would like to see on all the ammo types:
- Solid AP: 60-degree spall cone consistently regardless of the round size.
- APCR, APDS, and APFSDS: 45-degree spall cone consistently regardless of the round size.
- HE: restore the missing kinetic hammer effect and have that stack with the explosion effect to make big HE as devastating to anything it merely hits whether it overpressure triggers or not.
- HEAT: either the same minimum 45-degree spall cone or just have it overpressure whatever it pens.
- HESH: very wide spall cone from the scab breaking apart if not also just overpressuring whatever it pens - it’s just HE optimized for scabbing and also comes with a devastating sound blast that can incapacitate crews on its own.
Then arrange BRs based on the assumption that all ammo types will be lethal.