The problem is that those vehicles would perform even worse than they currently do unless you buff HEATFS. Then maybe most of them can get out of the WW2 BR range (though 7.0+ would still have to be decompressed to accommodate those changes since there would be a lot of better alternatives at the same BR if not)).
War Thunder (as much as it’s trying to be realistic) is a game after all, so bad (in terms of the War Thunder META) cold war / post WW2 tanks should stay in WW2.
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This, as some other BR brackets should be. And that, again, was also why I said moving those HEAT-FS vehicles should not be an isolated case but supported by other BR changes and so on
Now the biggest problem is getting Gaijin to buff HEATFS by a reasonable degree, and then somehow getting them to not compress the 7.0+ BR range while decompressing it.
They already did it once and now you have vehicles like the BMP-1s, Strikers, Swingfires, Leopard 1s, and Marders existing at higher BRs than what they should be.
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Well most of those tanks have the ability to tank hits, and the others have mobility. The sta1 being moved to 6.0 or 5.7 isn’t going to make it more survivable, its going to make it’s strengths actually feel worth it.
Edit: I agree that the t-34 stab is too high, should be 5.7
Both STA do better, 75mm HE can’t hurt them. M36, you’re looking it and die.
Genius idea, we should remove the the heat from the st a1 and move it to 5.3, and move the st a2 to 6.0 or 5.7
The T-34-85 (STP)?
How can you put it at the same BR as the plain T34-85 at 5.7?
2 big differences
- vertical STAB
- BR-367 which the STP has and plain one does not.
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M46/M26E2. If you want to know.
At minimum HEAT and HEATFS should have spall cones comparable to current full caliber solid AP, up to 45 degrees wide. At maximum the copper jet entering the tank should have an overpressure effect from the Mach 25 sound blast and fairly high temperature paired with a blinding flash.
Those things are not high enough - correctly modeling HEAT and HEATFS would mandate all of those never see even the most-advanced WW2-era tanks ever. Even monsters like the IS-7 would be pretty much obsolete when HEATFS actually works as its supposed to.
If I must be frank, I think we need extreme BR decompression.
- Extend the top BR to 40.0
- Use all missing digits between current numbers (0.1, 0.2, 0.4, 0.5, 0.6, 0.8, and 0.9)
- And then at that point the 1.0 spread would be just fine (though as a premium account feature I could see giving people the option to lower theirs to +/-0.3 or +/- 0.7, as long as the reductions in spread go evenly both ways so they are not literally pay to win).
That amount of space would enable decompressing the entire game, making sure the vast majority of HEATFS is incapable of seeing the late-WW2/early postwar heavy tanks, enable correctly rebuffing all other underperforming round classes (APCR, APDS, HESH, big HE), and finally open up tons of slots to add entirely new vehicles to the game.
I think that’s a bit too extreme. If, say, certain BR “slot” is filled with T-34, and other slots around it are filled with comparable T-34s, and then things like Pz. IV and M4A1s, I am afraid we will be seeing only T-34/M4/Pz.IV lobbies as these tanks are among the most (debatable) popular to roll around, and God forbid premium-vehicle BRs like high-tier where you already get full prem Abrams, T-80, Leo2 lobbies.
Maybe extension to 13.3 for the ground is one of the “softest” approach to how stuff should be decompressed, and then maybe extend to 13.7-14.0 to better sort out what each BR bracket should be defined with.
It won’t be as much a problem of searching for lobby as of what you will face (I guess only 1/4 of all ground vehicles are used regularly in battles).
Anyway, this is ST-A1/2 thread, not really a whole BR system discussion
See this level of “stuff sits in isolated clusters fighting themselves and contemporaries, neither being able to be uptiered nor downtiered due to nothing nearby” is the intended point.
So in their own bracket yes, T-34/76s, Cromwells, Shermans, long 50 Panzer IIIs, Chi-Nu, etc. would be seeing literally just each other and comparable other machines (such as various casemate TDs in several nations or SPGs like the SU-152, M10/Achilles, StuG III F, StuG III G, etc.).
The various long-barreled-gun tanks would meanwhile exist in their own bracket intentionally 1.3 BR higher so they never meet unless a person deliberately chooses to uptier something. T-34/57, long 75 Panzer IVs, stronger SPGs like the Jagdpanzer IV, Panzer IV/70(A), 76mm Shermans, Fireflies, Avengers, etc.
So no, go big or go home.
Low tiers are just as compressed as high tiers are, people just race or buy their way past them so fast they don’t bother to notice.
It relates because to correctly tier the ST-A1/A2 demands undoing old nerfing of HEATFS, and undoing said nerfing demands a lot more room to properly fit all of the various HEAT-spewing platforms.
Well, each of us has a different definition of “a lot”, thus I’ll just agree to disagree
It’s because I am thinking about not just the ST-A1/2, but also stuff like the L7-equivalent HEATFS, the M103, the low-tier HEAT dispensers such as the 105 Sherman/Zyrinyi II/SU-122, etc. etc.
That’s where the bulk of the BR decompression stems from - when you insist every ammunition type actually performs as it rightfully should be, a lot less is sensibly allowed to mingle together in ordinary matchmaking.
I love the M-51, unironically. I’m not joking when i say it’s a good tank. The HEAT rounds do alot of damage and can lolpen everything they see. This is probably relevant to the STA series, because HEAT-firing tanks require a very methodical playstyle. And honestly, I actually find it fun after years of APHE spamming with Soviet tanks.
ST-A1 and the M-51 have comparable guns. Both have armor that is considered weak for the BR.
The big difference is mobility. The ST-A1 has higher hp/t (16.1 vs 11.5) and a much better reverse (17 vs 5). ST-A1 also gets a .50 cal mg vs the .30 cal from the M-51.
I’d say all of the above would account for a 1 step difference in BR.
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This is far too extreme, and would fragment the playerbase too much. You wouldnt be able to get a game due to there being so many different BR brackets there wouldnt be enough players to fill them all, and you’d definitely end up with “dead” brackets where theres not enough players to ever get a game in them.
That is the unfortunate balancing act of BR decompression and placements. You have to end up not splintering the playerbase too thin.
That said I think Ground could easily decompress to 14.0 and air to 16.0 as it is, and then the whole tree needs to be extended, not just “everything from 10.0 moves up”. Everything starting from reserve needs to be spaced out
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Exactly, because the localized decompressions that Gaijin has been making has (for the most part) shifted compression elsewhere rather than eliminating it entirely.
You say my proposal is “far too extreme,” but that frankly is what would be needed to properly space out the entire game without artificially nerfing anything.
For instance, the interwar stuff currently from 1.0-3.0 needs at least double the space extending from 0.0-6.0. And there should be a hard wall preventing the clunky interwar/early WW2 memes from being fed to the Cromwells/Shermans/P.40s/T-34-76s/long barrel Panzer IIIs. This is just one example.
A higher tier one would be the 7.0-7.7 range. Early MBTs packing HEATFS such as M46/47/48 have absolutely no business ever seeing the likes of an IS-4M, Maus, T95, Tortoise, or similar vehicle. Nevermind all the 90mm cars flying around the map at Mach 1. Only the current godawful postpen of HEAT makes them “appear balanced” - exactly what I want to see changed.
Now the ST-A1, ST-A2, M36B2, possibly M-51 Shermans, ASU-85, Type-62, tanks like those are bad enough that they could be in the same matchmaker as the superheavies even with working HEATFS, though the Sherman’s 400mm pen autoloader would be pushing things despite its subpar mobility and zero armor.
The goal is that there would be no “era-blending” nor even the concept of uptiering nor downtiering. Because uptiers universally suck for everybody, while downtiers are funny “revenge for uptiers” that do not exactly help game health one bit (everyone else but you are suffering).
And that is what my “extreme” 0.0 to 40.0 BR proposal would likely do. Different groups of planes would be “clustered” in BRs with each other so that eras of aviation do not mix. Thus there would effectively be zero uptiers nor downtiers. As it should have been from the beginning. If match “diversity” gets stale, Gaijin should add more unique aircraft to change things up - there are tons of good ones missing still.
Your idea would have 400 seperate brs. With a litle over 1200 playable ground vehicles, that would be on average 3 vehicles per br. And taking into acount the obscene amount of shermans and T34s, some brs would be a battle between only M4A1 shermans or T34/85s. And some brs would have 1 single vehicle. 16 IKV-103 vs 16 IKV-103 sounds like peak gameplay
Remember, there is still the standard +/-1.0 spread.
The goal with using all the missing digits is meant to avoid situations where “stats say vehicle is too good, moving it up one step destroys it, leaving it where it is harms everyone” like what happened with too many vehicles over the course of the game’s lifetime. Instead you nudge up a problem vehicle in 0.1 increments.
We already sorta have this as-is so I don’t really see the issue. Sherman 76s, T-34/85s, Fireflies, SA50/FL-10 Shermans, Chi-Tos, Panzer IV F2/G/H, Comets, Challengers, Avengers, etc. all obliterate each other from pretty much any relevant combat distances.
Yes I do seriously see the long 75 Panzer IVs as criminally undertiered for their firepower, especially after the track modification on their mobility and maneuverability is taken into account - they’re glass but they’re hardly slow. Bad players are why they sit as low as they do.
No BR would be that level of deserted. But I will admit I have no idea where to tier the Ikv 103 - it’s small, insanely fast, thin-skinned, and with HEAT un-nerfed would have an actually very strong gun. But the velocity is terrible. Would it be bad enough to be okay with the superheavies? That I do not know.