Croatle yes. Crotale NG no.
Crotale: Multi vehicle system using R440 missile
Crotale NG: Self contained system using VT1 missile.
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Yep I mixed up the posts/posters
Yeah how dare a plane with F&F munitions face defenses with the same capabilities. The horror.
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Ok? Doesn’t change that 13.0s belong at 13.0
Except they’re 12.0, and that’s still too high
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Sure but they’re not 13’s 🤷🏻♂️
Almost every SPAA/AD system in the game is over tiered as is.
SLM and Pantsir belong at 13.0
The few rank 6s and 7s that Gajin broke the guidance of (e.g Roland) isn’t “almost every”.
The WW2 gun and autocannon SPAAs all have pretty good BR balancing.
The early radar SPAAs are in a strange spot where they’re amazing in downtiers but underwhelming in uptiers (every 7.0 has that issue though)
The late radar SPAA (e.g XM246) and early SAMs, namely Stingers, 4Ms, and Mim-72s are all unarguably undertiered.
ADATS, Rolands, and comparable SPAA suck because of compression. Pantsir and SLM are undertiered.
Once again, a CAS main that has zero idea of what he is talking about. Maybe don’t fly in a straight line. The Pantsir was the best SPAA, not because it was OP, but because everything else sucked. Same with the IRIS-T. It’s not OP, it’s just surrounded by things that suck.
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I mean you keep saying it. But that doesn’t make it true.
Maybe if Gajin didn’t intentionally handicap them it could be. But as it stands currently virtually every system is a minimum of .3 too high and several could probably drop 1.0
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The only SPAAs that could drop and be balanced is WW2 SPAAs, and that’s just bc lowering their BR would have no tangible change.
Struggling with any SPAA between 7.3 and 10.3 is literally the biggest skill issue possible.
Couldn’t reply sooner due to inactivity.
Yes, ruling on that burnout case was a purely 100% subjective opinion from that judge.
Show me a country that has laws which are illegal on their own ?
I’d like to see who has no idea what they’re doing.
Doesn’t and can’t for a law that is explicitly stated.
You’ve given us multiple example of how vague laws can turn the whole situation into a sloppy mess, where you have as many interpretations as you have people on the planet.
I hope (for their own good) that Sweden has a law about incitement.
If they do, then any law that talks about things like “do anything you’re asked to” assumes those asked things must be legal, otherwise it would break the incitement law thus making the law in of itself illegal.
I’d love to meet someone that thinks one law breaking the another isn’t completely ridiculous, rationale would be amazing I’m sure.
Those example laws should then be changed as soon as possible as they’re basically illegal and their introduction in such state was an oversight. I’m not arguing that there aren’t any bogus laws out there.
One blatant example would be if you wanted to pass a law that permits people to murder others for an intent of anything, all the while the country has a law stating that intentional murder is illegal.
Former law simply can’t legally exist while the latter on is in power.
But the noise would be the only factor that could cause public disturbance if a vehicle is driving normally and legally, which is why I brought it up.
Normal driving should be an action of driving a vehicle on a public road following all the traffic laws. Keep in mind that erratic/unnecessary driving also fall under the traffic law.
All those were vague laws and the section you quoted here has me specifying I’m talking about explicitly stated laws only. I do thank you for providing us many examples of how vague laws can make things confusing for both the police and citizens.
I do wish that WT handle serious issues as explicitly as our real life laws do.
One more WT related question, wouldn’t leaving the game while you still have SP to spawn BR appropriate vehicles that you own be considered griefing ?
Because it very much does look like it.
Same thing as with people intentionally spawning low BR vehicles in high tier matches, griefing or not ?
And your opinion on if that is correct or not is also subjective (which is what i was referring to).
Example showed later in that post with personal assistance for handicapped.
Which isn’t what is being discussed.
That’s the entire issue, “assumes” is vague and not explicitly stated. The two laws directly contradict in certain situations, which is why it has been brought up to court to have a ruling on to set an example case (example cases are used in the same way loophole patches would be in an explicitly stated system).
I read that bit wrong, please ignore that part, my bad.
That exact issue has existed in Sweden for YEARS with no solution in sight as of yet. Arguably stupid? yes. Exists? yes.
If the laws are vague that contradiction might not be discovered until way later, per haps years after implementation, at which point example cases and judgements are made to “patch” that issue.
Yes, but not the “level” of that noise, it could just as well be frequency of occurrence and tone. If you have a fan in your PC that starts acting up and constantly making a screeching noise you’re going to be bothered by it. If it acts up and only occasionally make a slight deeper sound you’re likely not going to care much, even if it’s on the exact same dB as the previous case.
That is still not really defined though. what is “normal” for one person might not be for another, What is “erratic/unnecessary driving” for one person might not be for another.
That’s a hard question, but seeing as there is a system already in place that punishes that action (crew lock) it is to some degree griefing in my personal opinion. It will however depend on the situation as (if i remember correctly) there is also a time limit on that crew lock and if you have played for long enough it is not punished and thus wouldn’t be considered griefing as you would likely have been deemed to have done enough in the match for your team anyway (lots of surrounding factors on that last point though and other rules that might come into play as well).
As there is an achievement in place for getting a kill with way lower BR vehicle i’d personally say it’s okay to do. How else would players get the “god mode” achievement?
That “do anything I ask law” couldn’t even be passed in the first place if it broke any other law, which in this case is a law about incitement so by definition you can’t ask for anything illegal. This is pretty much a no-brainer and yet another example of how explicitly stating something is better. It doesn’t take a genius to come up with this and say “Anything that you ask must be legal, otherwise the person you’re asking must say no and you’ll also be charged with incitement.”.
People going to court over this is laughable.
Yes, bogus laws do exist but I guess governments are too busy pushing their agenda (whatever that might be) so they can’t be bothered and fix such easily fixable oversights.
We’re seeing a trend with vague laws now.
The officials that made those laws should be held accountable for them, as some of those examples are so easy to fix that even a random forumer like me came up with a solution in like five seconds after reading it. Imagine people that are being paid to do just that miss such a trivial thing.
That is borderline incompetence and ignorance.
Something making more noise than it should is a clear sign of malfunctioning in relation to it’s stock specifications. I don’t know if it’s already implemented, but vehicle’s noise level should be related to everything related to that specific vehicle to include stuff like “bangs” and “squeaks” as well.
It’s not defined enough, I agree.
Why would you weave in your lane if it’s not necessary ?
Why would you rev your engine and do burnouts at a traffic light ?
Why would you race someone on a public road ?
All those things aren’t needed for you to go from point A to B and thus unnecessary and pretty much erratic/reckless.
Crew lock doesn’t apply to the already used vehicle when you get killed in it, so the player is now able to queue up for a game with only that vehicle available, further amplifying the issue, which is quite ironic from a system that’s supposed to combat this behavior.
This is pretty much speculative and shouldn’t be handled in such a way.
If you decided to leave before the game ends while having enough SP to spawn something, you could have done more, but you intentionally haven’t even tried to do so which is griefing by definition.
You must be joking, right ?
Removing an achievement that incentivizes griefing should be the way to go, not the other way around as otherwise any tries for a competitive and fair play fall flat on it’s face.
It’s actually shocking that you’re trying to excuse this behavior just because a simply removable achievement exists. This is an amazing in-game example of how something shouldn’t exist if it breaks another law.
God Mode probably breaks more than just a single rule in the game, so should’ve been null and void years ago.
So based on your statement, I’m not being griefed if most of my team spawns in a Reserve tier vehicle in a 12.0 match just because they want to achieve personal gain, with total and intentional disregard to their random team and teammates, intentionally ruining their experience and gains.
This is totally ludicrous in a PvP game that tries to be competitive.
Repeating, again, that i have not stated any stance on either system.
Just trying to convince you that they do exist and it does happen.
Subjective opinion.
Again, similar issues would arise out of an explicitly stated system where they need to patch loopholes.
Same could be argued for leaving loopholes in explicit systems.
That’s a different subject. My point is that dB level of noise doesn’t exclusively determine the disturbance a noise can potentially cause.
Define necessary.
There could be specific situations where those things would be considered “normal”. Icy road; a burnout happens naturally and could be considered normal in those conditions.
A “race” i can’t think of any direct example where that would be “normal” but for example if you have an injured person in your car and you’re driving to the hospital erratic driving could be considered “normal”.
There are going to be situations where your “normal” is another persons “not normal”.
If you have one crew locked in your lineup for ground you can’t queue with that lineup even if the other vehicles are not crew locked (or has that changed? i practically never get crew locked so haven’t had the opportunity to see it for many months, it at least used to be like that). Assuming here you are talking about ground or arcade air as you originally stated that you hade multiple vehicles to spawn in the same match.
Subjective.
No, i wouldn’t say so.
( griefing, n. meanings, etymology and more | Oxford English Dictionary )
I highly doubt that anyone would be angry at any player that leaves a match after having played for long enough to not get crew locked. At that point you’ve already played enough of the match for other players to not intuitively (without purposefully trying to calculate it by looking at score) know if you have SP left or not.
Subjective.
I don’t need convincing it does exist, I’m just trying to show how it can easily cause plethora of issues.
Anyways, I think we had enough of our talk about real life, I think there are more important things to discuss that are actually in game.
Can’t say for certain but I know I was able to queue up again with portion of my crews still being red, so I just wasn’t able to use those crews.
How is that subjective when you can check if someone could continue playing the match and do even more, but intentionally didn’t ?
Doesn’t really matter if you did “enough” if you had options to try and do even more.
Your first sentence is nothing but speculation.
You’re always able to spawn three ground vehicles back to back (2 normal + anti air) without doing any useful action that’d boost your SP. Someone that spends the majority of the game sitting somewhere gathering kills and then leaves after his first death after getting multiple kills should very well be classified as griefing.
Could he do more to help his team and teammates ? Yes.
Did he try to do that ? No.
It’s literally like you’ve made 10 kills in 5 rounds in CS2 and then just bail out of the competitive game saying “I’ve done enough, see you” and not getting penalized for that.
How is that subjective when the whole idea behind BRs is to protect players from ridiculously unfair/unbalanced matchups that would interfere with their experience ?
God Mode literally incentivizes players to be dead weight for their own personal gain.
Images you’ve posted above fit very well into this, as this behavior is pretty much intentionally disruptive and aggravating towards your teammates which is spoiling their enjoyment.
So based on your statement, I’m not being griefed if most of my team spawns in a Reserve tier vehicle in a 12.0 match just because they want to achieve personal gain, with total and intentional disregard to their random team and teammates, intentionally ruining their experience and gains.
Can you tell me if I’m being griefed here or not ?
You as a GM should be able to give me a definitive answer as it’s your duty to make calls on similar scenarios.
from my point of view you do, since you have repeatedly said “can’t” and “doesn’t” happen you have not given me a indication of understanding that it does exist and does happen.
Sounds odd and not something i’ve ever seen, but i’m not 100% on that one so i could be wrong.
How is it not subjective? “shouldn’t be handled in such a way” is very subjective.
Subjective, and i would argue isn’t in the definition of griefing as that requires malicious intent of disrupting others gameplay.
How is " should be the way to go" not subjective? all you listed towards the end is 100% opinions. I’m not saying any of them are wrong or right, but they are definitively subjective as it is possible to not agree.
Personal opinion:
If their intention is to cause other players discomfort, yes. if their intention is something else then no.
Is it? where have i stated as such?
No, the only thing subjective here is your opinion if someone has done “enough”.
“You either do everything you can or otherwise it isn’t enough.” should be a very clear and concise statement about that.
Everyone should be giving their best so they and their team can succeed more often, am I right ?
You didn’t just left the game by accident.
You leaving the game while still having ways to help me or someone else is pretty much disruptive to my and other’s gameplay.
This isn’t subjective as the BR system itself tells you everything you need to know.
Reserve tier vehicles can’t see 12.0 ones by default, as it’s obvious that’d be extremely unfair to one side of the engagement. You don’t want unfair games, right ?
You simply cannot know their intention in this case, it’s not like that’s spelled out of their foreheads. So how are you going to act up on it ?
So who’s responsible to act up on cases like these ?
You’re using very subjective describing words for something you claim is objective.
You attributing “everything you can” to “enough” is a subjective opinion.
“requires malicious intent of disrupting others gameplay.” Did they leave with the purpose of being disruptive? or did they leave because their house was on fire?
Intent.
If it was considered an issue you wouldn’t be able to bring that low BR vehicle in the first place and there wouldn’t be an achievement for getting a kill with it.
It IS subjective.
Previously posted:
Can’t go into more detail than that.
Jeez, there’s more legalese and litigation here than in most courtrooms.
People think I put out a lot of text walls–lmao!
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No kidding, but the thing is, they’re not even playing lawyer. They are playing semantics. “Actually you didn’t say this, therefore you’re wrong, I’m right, hardee-har-har.”
And I thought you were annoying when you tried claiming air on air eliminations counted as SPAA eliminations. Then again, it could have been some other weirdo, but I’m 90% sure it was you.