SPAA at 9.3-10.3 is hilariously OP and i see no one talking about it

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

It’s not about SPAA, it’s about the LAV AD being very fast and able to defend itself.

While useful for tank hunting, this is not a mandatory role for SPAA. Again, you lineup should be filled with other vehicles that can engage ground targets just as easily. What they can’t do is engage aircraft, and that’s the role SPAA should be primarily judged on.

With the obvious exception of SPAA that are primarily used for tank hunting like the 57-2 and Falcon.

@Pangolin_Fan

Simply doesn’t have with how little CAS get’s spawned, and ESPECIALLY doesn’t happen at 9.0

You’re arguing personal experience against personal experience again, this leads nowhere. All I can say is that there’s apparently enough CAS for the average Thunderskill player to go positive in the Sgt York. How do you accout for this if CAS is such a rarity at the tier?

@Pangolin_Fan

You do realize the hypocrisy in saying “so do your own math on that” right?

You’re the one throwing out arbitrary metrics for things. You said capping is 10x more valuable than shooting down a plane. Therefore, if a plane manages to bomb someone and prevent a cap, that plane has done something simply extrodinary according to your metrics. Especially if he has enough ordinance to do it again.

@Pangolin_Fan

Not an issue if you don’t sit out in the open, bonus points if you sit next to a dead body.

If you’ve fired at any CAS plane while the CCIP plane is watching, it doesn’t matter where you’ve hidden yourself, since they can just line up a run to hit you. You’d need to be moving cover constantly, making you vulnerable not just to enemy aircraft, but tanks too.

Not to mention this requires a map with cover you can use. Many of them don’t. Sands of Sinai comes to mind.

@Pangolin_Fan

bullpups are useful in therory, but in practice, there’s a reason it’s rare to see them ingame. CCRP bombs are more useful.

I doubt it, but I don’t have the A-4E so I’ll let someone else take this on.

@Pangolin_Fan

untracked? It’s called > stat cards <

These > stat cards < reccord missions played, spawns, deaths, kills, and more for each individual vehicle.

Stat cards are the things that pop up when you hover over a vehicle, that show you it’s speed, weaponry, armor, etc.

The service record is what I think you’re thinking of, and while that does record deaths, it does not record what each death was to, only the total.

@Pangolin_Fan

It’s not “slight differences” putting the Chappy at 9.0. That thing is just straight up awful.

The Chapparal is the worst, which is why it’s the lowest tier, but the difference isn’t that big. All IR SAMS are borderline useless against competant players.

@Pangolin_Fan

nearly every other nation in WT gets better 9.0+ options than the M247. The M247 is the only good SPAA for 9.0-10.0, so it must be able to fill the 10.0 role aswell.

I would happily take the Sgt York over any other SPAA at 10.0 or below. Yes, it gets hard countered by long range standoff munitions at those tiers, but so do all SPAAs below 10.3. At least it can consistently engage helicopters at medium ranges, and shreds planes capable of dodging IR SAMs.

[AK_Awful_Waffle-psn]

Oh I have known for quite some time that he’s a CAS driver who opposes any SPAA/AD that can threaten the ability to seal club ground assets.

Its been fun to see him claim something and then disprove it in the same or next post though.

[soymilkman]

@Aegis270

I doubt it, but I don’t have the A-4E so I’ll let someone else take this on.

Totally anecdotal, but Bullpups on the 1st two Buccaneers are some of my favorite weapons to use. Generous blast radius, very easy and responsive to aim. Also good on Skyhawk, but overshadowed by Walleyes.

[AllNationEnjoyer]

@Pangolin_Fan

“most BRs” as in rank 1.0-5.7 and 13.0? sure, if we go by that metric.

Try any BR other than 9.0-10.0?

@Pangolin_Fan

no not really. some bad SPAA has been nerfed,

??? Because every single SACLOS SPAA being made 50% worse overnight was definitely just some bad SPAA being nerfed? On top of all of the IR guided SPAA that isn’t Russian being modeled wrong? You have no idea what you’re talking about.

@Pangolin_Fan

complaining is a bad thing. actually addressing issues and giving thought out ideas on how to fix them is good. SPAA players almost never do the latter for some reason.

Your ability to keep that cognitive dissonance that strong is crazy since the ways SPAA needed to be buffed have been laid out precisely in the past.

[БЕИ]

@ULQ_LOVER

Planes always have the upper hand over SPAA no matter the B.R…

Sometimes I find my comrades in-game

CAS are like a fun timer in game to decide how long you could have fun in your tanks, they can simply come in and say: stop having fun bro. I started using SPAAs not because I enjoy playing them, it’s because I want to give them CAS mains a taste of their medicine, still no SPAA could do that easily to any pilot that has 5 more braincells than a orange cat.

[TheAceOfAces]

@Pangolin_Fan

Got that reversed. The issue is noob SPAA players who sit exactly where they spawned whole game, shoot at enemies outside they’re range, miss every shot, then complain that CAS is OP.

TEC made an excellent video discussing this point, that’s well worth a watch:

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/YiSrLgzytqw?si=F50pLDIFFmBo438W

To summarize, SPAA is often so inundated by the sheer amount of CAS in the sky, that they simply don’t have time to move out of the spawn before they’re immediately called into action. That’s why you so routinely see SPAA ‘stuck’ in their spawn.

Something not helped by a lot of very poor map design, which gives SPAA no nearby cover to move to anyway. They either sit where they spawn - trying to take advantage of spawn protection for as long as possible (And you need to be stationary to fire effective anyway), or they try and run, only to die to CAS out in the open as they do so.

In regards to accuracy. It’s far easier for plane to strafe slow / stationary SPAA, than it is for SPAA to hit fast moving manoeuvring plane.

[Tagnoch]

@Pangolin_Fan

The issue comes when planes are being put up against SPAA literally decades ahead of it’s time,

The ikv 72 was build more than ten years after the Tiger. It’s so unfair that it’s so much lower.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Aegis270

While useful for tank hunting, this is not a mandatory role for SPAA.

Again, an SPAA that can is far more useful than one that can’t.

@Aegis270

You’re arguing personal experience against personal experience again, this leads nowhere. All I can say is that there’s apparently enough CAS for the average Thunderskill player to go positive in the Sgt York.

Having a positive K/D means nothing when you average less than 2 kills a game.

@Aegis270

You said capping is 10x more valuable than shooting down a plane. Therefore, if a plane manages to bomb someone and prevent a cap, that plane has done something simply extrodinary according to your metrics

Which is exactly why SPAA that can both cap and shoot down planes is so valuable.

@Aegis270

If you’ve fired at any CAS plane while the CCIP plane is watching, it doesn’t matter where you’ve hidden yourself, since they can just line up a run to hit you.

You just gave the solution.

@Aegis270

You’d need to be moving

If SPAA players were smart enough to realize that when a high alt F-84B-26 going in a straight line above them drops a bomb then immediatly pulls off, means he just used CCRP/CCIP to get a perfect low-risk bomb drop, then your argument would be completely destroyed.

But no, they watch me coming from the moment I’m on their radar, they stare directly at me as they try to shoot me down, they watch me drop a bomb, and then act surprised when they blow up 20 seconds later. Your argument only works because SPAA mains are trash at WT.

@Aegis270

The Chapparal is the worst, which is why it’s the lowest tier, but the difference isn’t that big. All IR SAMS are borderline useless against competant players.

Other IR SAMs just need 1. The enemy to be within range 2. the enemy to be unaware
The Chappy 1. The enemy to be within range 2. The enemy to be flying below a certain speed 3. The enemy to be flying within a certain angle 4. the enemy to be unaware

@USA PilotsAreBad

Try any BR other than 9.0-10.0?

~6.7-~10.0 is where SPAA gains a massive advantage, although that depends on what nation you plane.

@USA PilotsAreBad

Your ability to keep that cognitive dissonance that strong is crazy since the ways SPAA needed to be buffed have been laid out precisely in the past.

I’ve seen a handful actual bug reports, Gajin ignoring them is nothing unique to SPAA. The rest is just dumb cope like “give non-radar SPAA lead indicator” or “move early SAMs to 6.7”

[Morvran]

I’d certainly like to see some buffs for CAS at that BR, like CBUs, but I don’t think SPAA is an inherent issue or too strong.

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

Again, an SPAA that can is far more useful than one that can’t.

This is an odd opinion to have when your contention is that SPAA is OP against CAS, which is the topic of conversation.

@Pangolin_Fan

Having a positive K/D means nothing when you average less than 2 kills a game.

I have no clue what you’re trying to prove with this. My point was that your claim of there not being enough CAS at 9.0 for an SPAA to be useful against it is incorrect considering the average Thunderskill player is finding enough CAS to kill 1.39 planes before dying.

@Pangolin_Fan

You just gave the solution.

Constantly shifting cover is only possible on some maps, only if the enemy team doesn’t have enough map control to fire into spawn, and only if there is no other CAS aircraft circling, waiting to pounce when you leave cover. Pretending that it is a consistent strategy that completely negates the advantages of CAS is laughable.

@Pangolin_Fan

If SPAA players were smart enough to realize that when a high alt F-84B-26 going in a straight line above them drops a bomb then immediatly pulls off, means he just used CCRP/CCIP to get a perfect low-risk bomb drop, then your argument would be completely destroyed.

But no, they watch me coming from the moment I’m on their radar, they stare directly at me as they try to shoot me down, they watch me drop a bomb, and then act surprised when they blow up 20 seconds later. Your argument only works because SPAA mains are trash at WT.

I find this claim quite ironic given your enormous issues with Gepards and Shilkas, SPAA that can be rendered entirely useless by simple course corrections and proper tactics.

Regardless, yes, there are indeed a fair few bad or inexperienced players who aren’t used to fighting CCIP/RP planes at the tier, and will just sit there while the bomb drops. And yes, they could concievable dodge these drops by moving after they see the plane pull off. This does not protect them against super low altitude runs, as common on Alpha Jets, who can pop up over the horizon and get a bombing solution before the SPAA has time to react.

I’m really struggling to understand what point you’re arguing here. Your central contention seems to be that SPAA between 6.7 to 10.0 is OP. Except you haven’t tried playing the ones you complain about most directly (Gepard, Shilka and their analogues). And the SPAA you do have at this tier don’t have the stats to support this claim.

You also claim SPAA seems to be largely driven by “noob SPAA mains” who sit still and allow CCRP bombs to be dropped on their head. And that tank hunting is a nessesary feature of SPAAs, which is why otherwise excellent SPAA like the Sgt York aren’t even worth considering for their excellent impact against CAS.

You claim that CAS planes aren’t a common sight at this tier, which seems entirely incorrect based on what data we do have, and sort of makes the complaint about SPAA being OP pointless since there’s apparently nothing for them to shoot down, according to you.

Frankly, your argument is contradictory and lacking any sort of facts to use as backing. It makes it difficult to disprove something you can’t conclusively prove. I’ll just end with one of my questions that you never answered. If SPAAs at this tier are so incredibly overpowered against CAS, and are only held back by the “noob SPAA mains” that use them, why can’t you make them work?

[Offenbanch]

@БЕИ

CAS OP

so you’re saying this


is op compared to this

?)))

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Aegis270

This is an odd opinion to have when your contention is that SPAA is OP against CAS, which is the topic of conversation.

That’s completely unrelated. An SPAA that’s OP against planes at a BR where only 1-2 planes spawn a game, but can’t cap or kill tanks is less useful than an SPAA which can CAP and kill tanks.

@Aegis270

I have no clue what you’re trying to prove with this. My point was that your claim of there not being enough CAS at 9.0 for an SPAA to be useful against it is incorrect considering the average Thunderskill player is finding enough CAS to kill 1.39 planes before dying.

K/D doesn’t matter when you get less than 2 kills per game.

@Aegis270

Constantly shifting cover is only possible on some maps

Moving 50ft after a plane with CCRP drops a bomb is possible on every ma[.

@Aegis270

only if there is no other CAS aircraft circling, waiting to pounce when you leave cover.

I’ve literally never seen that happen. If you’re revealing your position to CAS b4 you first fire, then that’s your problem, not mine.

@Aegis270

Regardless, yes, there are indeed a fair few bad or inexperienced players who aren’t used to fighting CCIP/RP planes at the tier

Fair few? I haven’t seen a single one who knows what he’s doing.

@Aegis270

This does not protect them against super low altitude runs, as common on Alpha Jets, who can pop up over the horizon and get a bombing solution before the SPAA has time to react.

You can hear them coming, and shoot them down b4 they get a chance to drop. Unless you’re really trash, then worst case scenario is a trade.

@Aegis270

I’m really struggling to understand what point you’re arguing here. Your central contention seems to be that SPAA between 6.7 to 10.0 is OP. Except you haven’t tried playing the ones you complain about most directly (Gepard, Shilka and their analogues).

Strange, you never say that about ppl who don’t play CAS.

@Aegis270

You also claim SPAA seems to be largely driven by “noob SPAA mains” who sit still and allow CCRP bombs to be dropped on their head.

Yes.

@Aegis270

And that tank hunting is a nessesary feature of SPAAs

No1 said it’s necessary. What I said is that useful vehicles matter more than non-useful vehicles.

@Aegis270

which is why otherwise excellent SPAA like the Sgt York aren’t even worth considering for their excellent impact against CAS.

Excellent impact against the single CAS that spawns throughout the entire match, V.S vehicles which can actually contribute to the match.

@Aegis270

You claim that CAS planes aren’t a common sight at this tier, which seems entirely incorrect based on what data we do have

The data we have. Includes map, nation played, BR and all the enemy aircraft.

Game #1, Abandoned factory, America, 9.7, enemy planes, 1x Mig
Mig died to an M247

Game #2, Maginot Line Winter, America, 9.7, enemy planes: 1x Alpha Jet
Alpha Jet died to a SANTAL

Game #3, Maginot Line Winter, America, 9.7, enemy planes: 1x Milan, 1x Alouette
Intercepted 3x Alouette ATGMs with Mim-72s
Alouette died to BMP-3
Milan crashed whilst evading Mim-72

Game #4, Arctic. Polar Base, America, 9.7, enemy planes: 1x Mi-8, 1x Gr.91, Alpha Jet
Mi-8 died as first spawn rocket rusher (forgot the details)
Gr.91 crashed attempting to suicide bomb
Alpha Jet destroyed by Harrier

Game #5, Aral Sea, America, 9.7, enemy planes: 1x Helicopter, 1x Milan, 1x EC-665
“Helicopter” did not get any kills or die, was only visible with “air alert”
Milan successfully suicide bombed an M247
EC-665 did not get any kills or die (also might be the unidentified helicopter)

Game #6, Ardennes Winter, America, 9.7, enemy planes: 1x Scout mk.1
Scout Mk.1 destroyed by Type 87

Only a single game had more than 2 enemy CAS, depending on whether you want to count the mystery helicopter.

@Aegis270

Frankly, your argument is contradictory and lacking any sort of facts to use as backing.

Sorry bud, that’s your argument. 50% of your argument is strawman, and you haven’t brought any sort of facts to the table.

[Creastroy]

Designed to counter those Heli on tree tips and A4E with AGM62, AND THUS everyone else is un-usable.

Corresponds to the meta of the br. Going planes is not a frequent choice

Reminder for ground mains: Flying stuffs cost 6 or more times the SP of your muddy tank.
It’s a kill streak bonus
not a rat in your trenches.

[Pangolin_Fan]

10x more SP if it has guided bombs

[Zephoid]

A good plane vs a good AA will win 60% of the time. 2 good planes vs 2 good AAs will win 80% of the time. Planes still have a trivial time killing multiple ground vehicles while only skilled AA players have a chance of getting multiple plane kills. 95% of BRs the balance is absurdly in planes favor, but even if you can find a single BR where AA might be better, how is that a problem? That AA stands such an awful chance at most BRs is far more of an issue.

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

That’s completely unrelated. An SPAA that’s OP against planes at a BR where only 1-2 planes spawn a game, but can’t cap or kill tanks is less useful than an SPAA which can CAP and kill tanks.

You haven’t proven this, but I’ll get to that later.

@Pangolin_Fan

K/D doesn’t matter when you get less than 2 kills per game.

Ditto

@Pangolin_Fan

Moving 50ft after a plane with CCRP drops a bomb is possible on every ma[.

Not every spawn has multiple pieces of cover, and if I recall correctly, you said only SPAA players who don’t know what they’re doing would make themselves vulnerable to SACLOS weapons by leaving cover.

But you’re right CCRP isn’t a huge threat against SPAA that know what they’re doing. But it’s also an unusual threat that many wouldn’t know they have to counter. There aren’t many planes that rely on it as their only CAS method, as most rely either on dumb bombs or CCIP/guided munitions.

@Pangolin_Fan

Fair few? I haven’t seen a single one who knows what he’s doing.

And yet the SPAA at this tier as so broken overpowered that they desperately need to be moved up? Despite the fact that no-one at the tier has any idea what they’re doing, according to you?

@Pangolin_Fan

You can hear them coming, and shoot them down b4 they get a chance to drop. Unless you’re really trash, then worst case scenario is a trade.

Directional sound is and has always been spotty in game, even if it consents to let you hear the plane coming before it’s right on top of you, it doesn’t give you an accurate bearing to preaim, just a vague direction.

Such low altititude popup attacks also prevent RADAR lock, meaning you have to freeaim the shot. Not hard if you have a lot of experience with SPAA, but less experienced players are likely to fumble with the RADAR instead.

@Pangolin_Fan

Strange, you never say that about ppl who don’t play CAS.

If the topic of conversation was about someone who hasn’t played CAS saying that CAS was objectively OP, that would be relevant. However, it isn’t. Don’t try to deflect.

@Pangolin_Fan

The data we have. ~SNIP~

Wow. A sample size of 6. Impressive. Surely, we can expect to see tremendous effect sizes from such a comprehensive amount of data, and draw sweeping conclusions from it.

However, it is ever so slightly smaller than the sample size of 1204 that I was using for my assertion. And keep in mind the actual proportion of CAS is likely to be somewhat higher, as this only accounts for the kills attributed to the Sgt York, which means kills by other SPAA, CAP jets and the non-US team of each map are not counted.

So, let’s hear it. How do Thunderskill players manage to generate planes to shoot down that you assert aren’t real?

@Pangolin_Fan

Sorry bud, that’s your argument. 50% of your argument is strawman, and you haven’t brought any sort of facts to the table.

This is rather hilarious to read. I’d love for you to quote the “50% of my argument that’s strawman”, and point out that countering a sample size of over a thousand with personal anecdotes and a sample size of 6 is not exactly putting the facts on your side.

But hey, since you like personal anecdotes so much, I decided to oblige you. Here’s the first game I played at 9.0 today (8.7 at a 0.3 BR uptier). I took the time to load up the server replay and count the CAS that spawned. There were 11. Here’s the server replay so you don’t have to take my word for it.

Mi-4
H-34
A-4B
IL-28
Another Mi-4
Allouette
F-80C
IL-28SH
Meteor Mk 4
UH-1B
Me-262 A1a/U1

Now, unlike you, I don’t claim this provides a particularly accurate represenation of the average game at the tier. But surely you can see how unconvincing small sample sizes can be.

[Cyvell_シ]

@Pangolin_Fan

You can hear them coming, and shoot them down b4 they get a chance to drop. Unless you’re really trash, then worst case scenario is a trade.

If you’ve ever played as an SPAA at 9.0 - 10.0 you would know that thats just plain wrong, not sure what the issue is with the sound system but there are countless times where i don’t know a plane exists unless i see it on a radar (which SAM SPAA dont usually have) or seen it with your own eyes. This is of course mostly personal experience, but i stand by the fact that SPAA are underpowered in part due to the limited space they have to move (only two dimensions as oppose to CAS) but also due to aforementioned arguments such as minor adjustments by the pilot can make up for gun SPAA shots.

As for addressing the amount of CAS at this tier (9.0 - 10.0) playing against the CAS horsemen (A4 variants, G91, SAAB105G), you will easily get a bad streak of games where you get CASed once or multiple times of one of these aircraft.

(edit: coud’ve phrased this message better, sounded waaay too in over myself)

[JuicyKuuuuki]

@Cyvell_シ

you will easily get a bad streak of games where you get CASed once or multiple times of one of these aircraft.

Ehh dunno about that boss. Played a lot of 9.0 to 9.7 Br battles and killed more CAS planes then I died to them. Never had bad streak of games to those jets or CAS overall…like ever. Mainly because im always aware of incoming CAS along with me dealing with CAS on capable vehicles. Not just using SPAA but other tanks with HE-VT rounds available. If I have that round available, I’m responsible for taking down CAS with it. Even at 6.0, died to CAS twice out of 10 games (have this recent 10 games recorded).

But yea, back to the main post, there are a lot less CAS used around 9.3 to 10.3 and SPAA are not OP. If anything, its stingers are not performing as they do irl.

[Cyvell_シ]

@JuicyKuuuuki

Ehh dunno about that boss. Played a lot of 9.0 to 9.7 Br battles and killed more CAS planes then I died to them. Never had bad streak of games to those jets or CAS overall…like ever.

Fair enough, its all down to personal experience, sadly cant back the claim up with cold hard evidence

@JuicyKuuuuki

Mainly because im always aware of incoming CAS along with me dealing with CAS on capable vehicles. Not just using SPAA but other tanks with HE-VT rounds available. If I have that round available, I’m responsible for taking down CAS with it. Even at 6.0, died to CAS twice out of 10 games (have this recent 10 games recorded).

Although i do agree being aware of CAS is equally important to focusing on ground, ground is a much more prevalent threat than an A4E up in space that i cant do zilch about anyway, and how aware can i be about a SAAB105G buzzing about when I’m under fire from multiple ground based enemies. It’s annoying to have to divert half my attention and load an entirely new shell just to try to combat air ineffectively, or am unable to all together due to a complete lack og HE-VT shells (a few TTs that I’m aware of two of which I play, Japan and Britain, dont get VT shells)

It’s also problematic all together to have to forget everything you’re doing to find a tree to hide under and pop smoke only to get smacked with a AGM or GPS Bomb anyway. SPAA in its current form just isn’t capable of countering CAS, and if there is an SPAA usually it will get flagged brighter than a Christmas tree.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Aegis270

Not every spawn has multiple pieces of cover, and if I recall correctly

point is invalid as it’s completely unrelated to what I said.

@Aegis270

you said only SPAA players who don’t know what they’re doing would make themselves vulnerable to SACLOS weapons by leaving cover.

If you’re getting attacked by multiple vehicles at once, you’re gonna die. Why should 1 SPAA fightinig multiple planes be stacked in the SPAA’s favor?

@Aegis270

But you’re right CCRP isn’t a huge threat against SPAA that know what they’re doing. But it’s also an unusual threat that many wouldn’t know they have to counter.

Not my fault if they don’t care to learn.

@Aegis270

Directional sound is and has always been spotty in game, even if it consents to let you hear the plane coming before it’s right on top of you, it doesn’t give you an accurate bearing to preaim, just a vague direction.

The problem clearly is you. Even with cheap earbuds, hearing where planes are coming from has never been a problem.

@Aegis270

Such low altititude popup attacks also prevent RADAR lock,

it also prevent the plane from seeing you.

@Aegis270

meaning you have to freeaim the shot. Not hard if you have a lot of experience with SPAA, but less experienced players are likely to fumble with the RADAR instead.

Again, that’s a problem with noob SPAA mains.

@Aegis270

However, it is ever so slightly smaller than the sample size of 1204 that I was using for my assertion.

Thunderskill: The most reliable way to lose an argument

@Aegis270

.

But hey, since you like personal anecdotes so much, I decided to oblige you. Here’s the first game I played at 9.0 today (8.7 at a 0.3 BR uptier). I took the time to load up the server replay and count the CAS that spawned. There were 11.

congrats, you played over a dozen matches and cherry picked the one with tons of CAS.