SPAA at 9.3-10.3 is hilariously OP and i see no one talking about it

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

A skilled heli pilot is very hard to take down with gun SPAA like M247 or Gepard, however a skilled SPAA player (very rare btw) is near impossible to kill with SACLOS ATGMs.

Considering your lack of experience with SPAA that have to fight SACLOS ATGMs, I don’t think you can make this claim. Especially because you’ve only played one CAS plane with SACLOS ATGMs (That being the A-4E), and you only managed under half of the KD that the average player on Thunderskill managed with it too (0.9 vs 2.05)

@Pangolin_Fan

the yorky’s radar range is just barely far enough to track helis from their helipad if you’re at center of map (from spawn it’s too far),

Which would be relevant only if helicopters could fire from their helipad. Which they can’t. The very worst the Sgt York has to deal with are the later Hinds with Sturms, which have a 5km range, which is entirely within the Sgt York’s range. Others, like the very common reserve tier ones like the Z-11 and Scout have 3-3.5km range, which is effectively point blank for the Sgt York.

@Pangolin_Fan

tracerless proxy shots sure are nice, but they simply don’t outway the sacrifices.

What possible sacrifices does the Sgt York make in an AA role? Yeah, it can’t hunt tanks consistently, but that’s not the role of an SPAA. Meanwhile, it has the capability of engaging planes that other SPAAs can’t even touch. That’s well worth the tradeoff. Judging SPAA by their tank hunting ability is pointless, especially when the topic of conversation is about how they deal (or don’t) with CAS.

@Pangolin_Fan

Look at my M19A1 stats. Massive difference huh? That’s because planes are rare at M163’s br and mythical at M247’s br, meaning 90% of games result in either 1 plane kill 0 deaths, or 1 death and 1 or 2 tank kills cause I got bored of waiting to fix a problem that doesn’t exist.

And your M19A1 (with 372 battles played) managed a whopping 0.3 KD against planes. Worse than your performance in the Sgt York.

To be fair, this is no surprise, the M19A1 is not a particularly good vehicle at engaging aircraft. The average player on Thunderskill only manages 0.11. But it doesn’t speak to your godlike ability to clear the skies with SPAA.

And the excuse for lack of planes at the tier doesn’t fly either (unintentional pun). The average KD against planes on Thunderskill for the Sgt York is 1.39, shockingly high for an SPAA and higher than every tier 6 SPAA equipped with IR SAMs.

For reference, the Gepard only manages 0.34. I wouldn’t consider these equal in the SPAA role.

Obligatory disclaimer that Thunderskill isn’t super accurate. However, it’s known to have a bias towards better players (Since only better players will have used the site, thus giving their stats over to them). Thus, the actual KDs for these SPAA is likely much worse than they seem here.

[AK_Awful_Waffle-psn]

@Pangolin_Fan

Because hundreds of games with only a fraction of the kills doesn’t mean skill XD

So you’re admitting you’re bad with quite possibly the easiest gun SPAA, after admitting that they’re not OP.

You’re not really making a convincing argument here…

[БЕИ]

@Pangolin_Fan

no not really. some bad SPAA has been nerfed, mainly ones from minor nations like R3 T20, but most have been buffed. M42 got moved down, Russia got tons of new OP SPAA toys to play with, heck let’s not forget that SPAA have nearly unlimited ammo now, something planes don’t/can’t have.

Only at top tier, USSR has SPAA that is mediocre in comparison at 8.0 in terms of AA capability, I mean you look at the Shilka and then you look at the Gepard, I mean not Gepard as Gepards turret/35mm oerlikons that is a better AA and AT compare to what Shilka could dish out, the M247 also out-class it in that department because CAS wouldn’t even know they are been shot at until its too late. And lower br they are also mostly mediocre SPAA like the BTR-152D, it is not a good SPAA compare to something the likes of Wirblewind or the new T77E1, only the BTR-ZD is half decent but you gotta deal with that reload after a short burst fire. Most br USSR has rather trash SPAA, or a nicer way to call them “not user friendly”

[AlvisWisla]

9.3 - 10.3 SPAA is probably the most balanced in the game.
Ayit, Super Etendard, Jaguar, Alpha Jet E, AMX, G91Y, Q-5L, Q-5A, AV-8S, Jaguar, Harrier GR3, Buccaneer S2, Buccaneer S2B, Su-25, Alpha Jet A, Tornado IDS, A-6E TRAM, A-4E, F-111A…

ALL CAS options that give good counterplay to the SPAA available AT their BRs.

@Pangolin_Fan

even as low as 8.3 with ZSU-23s and Gepards, SPAA is already far too strong

SAAB-105G, F-86, Alpha Jets, F-84Fs, Scimitar, Saar, A32A… all provide excellent counter-play against those SPAA.

[TheAceOfAces]

@simsimkek

and radar spaag’s in a downtier already make it pretty challenging, while in an uptier any spaa with manpads or guided missiles means you will instantly die without having any form of counter play

And what’s the alternative ? CAS being able to destroy tanks without any sort of counter play?

Why should tanks be relegated to cannon fodder in their only game mode?

IMO, SPAA should always be the more powerful in the AA V CAS dynamic. If CAS truly takes skill, as it’s ‘mains’ so often like to profess, I have faith in their supreme abilities to adapt and overcome.

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

pretty ironic for you to say.

How so? I’ve spaded 9 SPAAs at the tier. Type 87, ZA-35, ItPsv Leopard, VEAK (pre-nerf), AMX-30 DCA, Shilka x2 (Russian and Italian), SANTAL and Type 93. That’s not including the Falcon, since I only ever tank hunted with it, and the lack of a RADAR makes dealing with SACLOS ranged weapons almost impossible.

@Pangolin_Fan

The york needs to be brought to higher BRs untill LAVAD bc there’s nothing usable inbetween the 2.

I’d argue the York is better than the LAV AD. At least when it comes to hunting aircraft. I’ll take tracerless proxy over the 25mm with very limited range, Stingers that miss if the target makes a hard pull, and no search RADAR.

@Pangolin_Fan

It can’t kill tanks with makes spawning it a waste to your team.

Clearing the sky can be infinitely more valuable, especially if you get people before they drop, or at least before they’re out of ordinance. Good CAS planes like the SAAB, Alpha Jet or A-4 family can turn one spawn into 4-5 free kills if unconstested.

@Pangolin_Fan

0.3 K/D against planes? You do realize that less than 30 of the 330 deaths are to planes right?

This is not information anyone would have access to, unless you’ve been painstakingly keeping track of it yourself, which seems doubtful.

Either way, it’s still not proof of you being exceptional against aircraft. It certainly doesn’t explain the low air KD you have in every SPAA that can’t consistently hunt tanks (M247, M16, M163, etc).

@Pangolin_Fan

Thunderskill is filled with tryhard swaying the stats (also doesn’t include the stock games)

Thunderskill absolutely includes stock games. I know this because it tracks my stats for vehicles I’ve played under 10 games, which I’ve definitely not spaded.

@Pangolin_Fan

America doesn’t have a proper SAM option untill 10.0

Why would this make the Sgt York’s stats better than the other RADAR guided SPAAs? Wouldn’t that make it worse, since people would be bringing it to higher tiers where it would be less competitive?

@Pangolin_Fan

Because, much like the M19A1, it’s used mainly for anti-tank. Ofc you wouldn’t know this since you don’t play rank 6.

I don’t know where you’re getting this from, because I have played so much rank 6. Feel free to check for yourself, if you want. I’ll link it right here.

[AK_Awful_Waffle-psn]

@Aegis270

I’d argue the York is better than the LAV AD. At least when it comes to hunting aircraft. I’ll take tracerless proxy over the 25mm with very limited range, Stingers that miss if the target makes a hard pull, and no search RADAR.

Agreed. Though I usually bring both, the M247 is a much better plane killer than the LAV because I can kill anything within range and I’m not rolling the dice on badly modeled stingers which may be impossible to flare/juke or may decide all 8 don’t want to guide and you never know which.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Aegis270

I’d argue the York is better than the LAV AD. At least when it comes to hunting aircraft. I’ll take tracerless proxy over the 25mm with very limited range, Stingers that miss if the target makes a hard pull, and no search RADAR.

Regardless of which you think is better for SPAA (which is subjective), only one of them is actually useful for capping and destroying tanks, which is 10x more valuable than killing one of the two enemy planes to spawn whole game.

@Aegis270

Clearing the sky can be infinitely more valuable, especially if you get people before they drop, or at least before they’re out of ordinance. Good CAS planes like the SAAB, Alpha Jet or A-4 family can turn one spawn into 4-5 free kills if unconstested.

those 4-5 kills are 90% of the time either campers, or noobs that wouldn’t have any real effect on the match anyways. Besides, those are all close-range CAS that can easily be taken out with an actually useful vehicle, e.g BMP.

@Aegis270

Either way, it’s still not proof of you being exceptional against aircraft.

I beg to differ. My M19A1 KD is better than all my other SPAAs.

@Aegis270

Thunderskill absolutely includes stock games

Thunderskill? yes. Players? no.

@Aegis270

Why would this make the Sgt York’s stats better than the other RADAR guided SPAAs? Wouldn’t that make it worse, since people would be bringing it to higher tiers where it would be less competitive?

Your point was it would have to compete with IR SAMs. My point is the only American IR SAM is garbage, and thus no competition.

[БЕИ]

@TheAceOfAces

And what’s the alternative ? CAS being able to destroy tanks without any sort of counter play?

Why should tanks be relegated to cannon fodder in their only game mode?

IMO, SPAA should always be the more powerful in the AA V CAS dynamic. If CAS truly takes skill, as it’s ‘mains’ so often like to profess, I have faith in their supreme abilities to adapt and overcome.

CAS mains: “why should we care about things we don’t even enjoy playing? since we already has our own game mode haha this game starts with planes…”

The audacity lol

[БЕИ]

@Pangolin_Fan

I beg to differ. My M19A1 KD is better than all my other SPAAs.

You cannot be good with the M19/M42/Ostwind 2 and shit at the M247 lmao, I’m still confused about you saying the T77E1 is not a good SPAA, maybe my sarcasm detector just isn’t working today.

[TheAceOfAces]

“Just spawn AA bro”

Okay

“Not fair, AA make plane go bing bang ouch. Snail pls nurf :(“

[Pangolin_Fan]

@БЕИ

I’m still confused about you saying the T77E1 is not a good SPAA

Because .50cals are extremely limited, both against planes and tanks.

@TheAceOfAces

“Just spawn AA bro”

Okay

“Not fair, AA make plane go bing bang ouch. Snail pls nurf :(“

Strawman 101

[TheAceOfAces]

@Pangolin_Fan

Strawman 101

The comical thing is, it’s hardly even a strawman. This is the most cyclical, repetitive argument in the history of this game.

Tanker gets frustrated at CAS

CAS tells tanker to spawn AA

Tanker spawns AA

CAS cries about AA

CAS more powerful than AA is added

AA cries about CAS

CAS tells tanker to spawn CAP

Tanker gets frustrated at CAP spawn cost

CAS tells tanker to just spawn his AA then…

Rinse and repeat, ad nauseam, for a decade and counting.

CAS isn’t happy unless they can space bar half the enemy team with impunity. Tankers aren’t happy when they’re being space bar’d without adequate or realistic counterplay.

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

Regardless of which you think is better for SPAA (which is subjective), only one of them is actually useful for capping and destroying tanks, which is 10x more valuable than killing one of the two enemy planes to spawn whole game.

I’ll take an SPAA that can consistently keep the skies clear over one that can cap lightly contested points any day. Sure, having the flexibility to do both can be nice, but generally your lineups should include 3-4 other vehicles that can do that better. If it comes down to SPAA having to cap points, something’s gone terribly wrong.

Something like uncontested CAS coming in and wiping out all your team’s ground vehicles, for instance.

@Pangolin_Fan

those 4-5 kills are 90% of the time either campers, or noobs that wouldn’t have any real effect on the match anyways.

This is unknowable, and certainly not my experience. However, I would point out that a consisntent target for CAS vehicles are tanks who are attempting to cap points, since their position is given to them for free. And you seem to think that capping is 10x more valuable than shooting down aircraft, so do your own math on that.

@Pangolin_Fan

Besides, those are all close-range CAS that can easily be taken out with an actually useful vehicle, e.g BMP.

The SAAB and Alpha Jet are CCIP CAS, able to bomb with precision either from beyond SPAA’s range or in close range, popup attacks that catch them off guard. A-4s are definitely not close range if they’re playing correctly, since they can guide their ordinance while manuevering at >2km.

@Pangolin_Fan

I beg to differ. My M19A1 KD is better than all my other SPAAs.

Using these untracked stats you just happen to have? That aren’t born out by your other SPAAs which are easier to use but can’t hunt tanks? Those stats?

@Pangolin_Fan

Thunderskill? yes. Players? no.

I legitmately don’t know what this means.

@Pangolin_Fan

Your point was it would have to compete with IR SAMs. My point is the only American IR SAM is garbage, and thus no competition.

All IR SAMs at or around this tier have basically identical usability, with only slight differences. Claiming the Sgt York is bad because people sometimes take it up to fight stuff well beyond it’s BR, which it cannot handle, is not exactly a fair mark against it.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Aegis270

If it comes down to SPAA having to cap points, something’s gone terribly wrong.

It’s not about SPAA, it’s about the LAV AD being very fast and able to defend itself.

@Aegis270

Something like uncontested CAS coming in and wiping out all your team’s ground vehicles, for instance.

Simply doesn’t have with how little CAS get’s spawned, and ESPECIALLY doesn’t happen at 9.0

@Aegis270

However, I would point out that a consisntent target for CAS vehicles are tanks who are attempting to cap points, since their position is given to them for free. And you seem to think that capping is 10x more valuable than shooting down aircraft, so do your own math on that.

You do realize the hypocrisy in saying “so do your own math on that” right?

@Aegis270

The SAAB and Alpha Jet are CCIP CAS, able to bomb with precision either from beyond SPAA’s range

Not an issue if you don’t sit out in the open, bonus points if you sit next to a dead body.

@Aegis270

A-4s are definitely not close range if they’re playing correctly, since they can guide their ordinance while manuevering at >2km.

bullpups are useful in therory, but in practice, there’s a reason it’s rare to see them ingame. CCRP bombs are more useful.

@Aegis270

Using these untracked stats you just happen to have? That aren’t born out by your other SPAAs which are easier to use but can’t hunt tanks? Those stats?

untracked? It’s called > stat cards <

These > stat cards < reccord missions played, spawns, deaths, kills, and more for each individual vehicle.

@Aegis270

I legitmately don’t know what this means.

Noobs don’t use thunderskill. Most thunderskill players have their most played vehicles spaded.

@Aegis270

All IR SAMs at or around this tier have basically identical usability, with only slight differences.

It’s not “slight differences” putting the Chappy at 9.0. That thing is just straight up awful.

@Aegis270

Claiming the Sgt York is bad because people sometimes take it up to fight stuff well beyond it’s BR, which it cannot handle, is not exactly a fair mark against it.

nearly every other nation in WT gets better 9.0+ options than the M247. The M247 is the only good SPAA for 9.0-10.0, so it must be able to fill the 10.0 role aswell.

[Tagnoch]

@Pangolin_Fan

Because outside of rank 3- and 8, SPAA has a massive edge whilst being a fraction of the cost to spawn.

The spaa is supposed to protect it’s team because the tanks can’t defend themselves. It’s not cas vs spaa, it’s cas vs team. Because of this the spaa needs to be at least as powerful as the plane to effectively protect it’s team.

[soymilkman]

9.3 stinger type weapons do slaughter in a downtier, but it would be hard to move them up since Aircraft at 9.3 and up start getting hard to kill with non-proxy fuze AA.

As almost always, compression is the problem.

And also players who are (justifiably) bitter about CAS being too strong will always want planes/helis to be as un-viable as possible.

A potential fix, and good change all around, would be to make it cheap for planes to only spawn with guns/air to air weapons. Maybe then 9.3-10.3 AA could move up a step.

Perhaps also limit how many planes can be in the air at one time, for each team.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@AK_Awful_Waffle

That’s a lot of wrong in one post.

You look at his profile in-game and You will get a grasp of his views at the game.

[Pangolin_Fan]

For SPAA to be more powerful than CAS and balanced, it’d need to be the same or higher SP cost. There’s a reason low-tier SPAA is so cheap. The issue comes when planes are being put up against SPAA literally decades ahead of it’s time, whilst still being 70sp.

@soymilkman

9.3 stinger type weapons do slaughter in a downtier, but it would be hard to move them up since Aircraft at 9.3 and up start getting hard to kill with non-proxy fuze AA.

Imo the issue isn’t even SAMs. The issue is comically undertiered radar SPAA, e.g ZSU-23 or the Gepard and its many clones.

@soymilkman

A potential fix, and good change all around, would be to make it cheap for planes to only spawn with guns/air to air weapons. Maybe then 9.3-10.3 AA could move up a step.

Perhaps also limit how many planes can be in the air at one time, for each team.

Is it even worth explaining why make CAP super cheap and limiting how many planes can be up at once are both horrible ideas?

[ULQ_LOVER]

@Pangolin_Fan

For SPAA to be more powerful than CAS and balanced, it’d need to be the same or higher SP cost. There’s a reason low-tier SPAA is so cheap. The issue comes when planes are being put up against SPAA literally decades ahead of it’s time, whilst still being 70sp.

Planes always have the upper hand over SPAA no matter the B.R…