Ah yes. Watching you climb high enough to launch an AS-30 from that massive range, waiting a minute for it to hit while doing nothing, while the missile is on radar, and staying in plain sight, completely exposed, just to guarantee it hits. You could not get a more skill issued SPAA player.
And just for the record, the Super Étendard is 11.0 in Ground RB. Not 10.3.
I’m starting to think about monitors… that guy in the su22 video didn’t even used the mouse guidance trick… With the 27in monitor, he spots, fires and tracks almost beyond the rendering of the video. afaik if I’m doing that sinai santal shot, the aimpoint shift by one touch on my mouse would take the missile 20m away.,
Majority of people will try to blow up the mothership unaware that they can’t. Better SPAA players will try to get in cover, those that smoke will get splash damaged.
Thing is, having no obligation to take care of the SPAA since it can’t touch me, I can also fire at tanks that won’t know it’s coming, leaving the SPAA to try and shoot down that ordnance, provided it can lock it, and provided it can hit it. Only the Osa has a missile with the potential to do that.
I don’t know what to tell you there, I don’t know why you think a missile like the AS-30 loses capability the further it travels. It’s sustainer burns for the entire flight, and it’s being helped by gravity. It can’t turn great, but even a target going fullspeed perpendicular to it’s flight path isn’t going to dodge, worst case it’ll be a splash impact instead of direct.
Similarly, you can’t miss when you have a targeting pod that has lock on. Just be mindful if it locks a wreck.
Setup your approach, pick a target that can’t get in cover quickly, fire as soon as the rangefinders hits 11, turn 90°, go in pod to oversee that it doesn’t switch target, and collect. It’s really just that easy.
Again, how do you lose the target ? No ground vehicle is fast enough to get out of your capture zone, the only thing they can do is get behind hardcover and you are free to pick a target that doesn’t have cover available. On urban maps just use a guided bomb for the top down trajectory.
Look at the replay I sent, launch on a Stryker that gets destroyed shortly after but since I’m overseeing the launch I can switch to a T-72 nearby and still kill something.
Faster than the AGM-65, better payload, and being able to stay in the guidance loop helps against unwanted target switch. When mounted on the A-10 the AGM-65 really doesn’t get enough energy, much like the Kh-25ML is seriously hindered by the targeting suite of the base Su-25. That was a purely subjective statement from my personal preference.
Not the point, I switched to the SEM only to demonstrate that the AS-30 performed the same when fired from either plane since you don’t seem to have the Jaguar. The main reason that makes the SEM 11.0 in GFRB is that it has a much higher payload with up to 6 GBU.
Only valid if both the SPAA and plane have neither speed nor altitude difference. The SPAA’s missile is fighting against gravity while pulling lead with no initial impulse. It’s constantly wasting energy while in the case of the AS-30 it’s constantly gaining energy. You acknowleded that earlier.
Unfortunately both the average CAS player and the average SPAA player isn’t spending time thinking about why they do the things they do. It hides the discrepancy between SPAA and CAS capibility from 8.7 and up.
It’s not an issue in a void, the format of WT greatly participate to worsen the situation, but the short version is that for the SPAA to be of value it needs to either destroy any planes before they get off their ordnance, or intercept all of it. For CAS, anything you destroy is helping your team, your objectives are significantly more lax than that of the SPAA, while you often have significantly better tools.
Only the Pantsir is seemingly able to be effective because it’s good at catching ordnance, but it’s still vulnerable to a variety of strategies.
Ok I’m back from 10.3 matches. 8G pulling stinger is a lie.
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/345974398970318181?public_key=UOWlwLc8M1wOUKRPSEy9
Plz forgive what I’ve done on the ground.
And with my monitor I can only keep 1km form the target when kh25 hits. That’s achieved on a known target with a furthest firing range, determined by the furthest range at which I can clearly see the enemy when the missile arrives. a.k.a. fire before aim and hit when aligned.
Not doing very proper defensives after pull-outs in this game, for luckily our team has overwhelmed AA by number and I’m seeking for efficiency. For the entering I would suggest you won’t judge a aggressive one like in the vid.
Will adding rolling work here? I don’t think this hit on 8G pull is close to miss. Will going further before pulling work? They are fast enough. Will pulling earlier work? I’m not staying too close to ground map.
Did chose to attack spawn camper instead of AAA, to help with the battle than myself.
You are aware that the higher a plane is the easier it is for the a missile to hit it right?
You also state the osa has a max range of 10.3km, then state the max effective range of ES30 is 11km,
thats a difference of 700 meters, not several kilometers.
I also maintain the argument htat if the missile is flying for a huge 22 seconds that it is likely to miss, unless the target is absolutely stationary for that amount of time.
Being able to drop 3 or 4 missiles as you pass by from 4km or 5km away is substantially better than two at 11km. which aren’t gaurunteed to hit regardless.
As well as this, the A10 has sa substantially better overall payload than the Jaguar. Its issue is its over all FP, which it actually can use relatively well in a 10.3 game, however go up to 11.0 etc it falls apart.
If you are actively participating in the match, maintaining 11km.
Watching for CAP
SPAA.
And making sure you remain locked onto the target is how you can lose a target.
Not how they work either and if you are dropping a GBU from top down trajectory then you will be within the SPAA zone
I use the GR1A extensively and even its GBUs which can be slung at about 5km are difficult to get top down.
Did I say the missile slowed down at all?
I stated that the missile will be off target due to the target moving, or smoking neither of which calls teh AS30 bad at all.
Im explaining to you that in my over 3000 hours that the range of which laser guided munitions effectively work is greately exagurated. Exhibit even on the best platform in game arguably the typhoon, with its brimstones.
You can miss, you can still lose lock with a targetting pod. And if you are sitting in the pod to ensure it doesnt lose its lock then you are not going to manuevere out of SPAA range when you glide into it, as well as are not going ot be watching for CAP-
Agreed but even then it still isn’t as effective as just spawnign a plane.
Overall, SPAAGs I believe some of them have too strong anti ground capabilities, however the best bet is to spawn a plane as CAP
Situational awareness. IE not hyper fixating on a single target to the exclusion of all else. If you’ve played Air RB, you’ll know, you’re always at your most vulnerable when you’re lining up a shot on someone else.
He has guided weaponry, which most good CAS options do at this tier. He has no need for pop up attacks, he can just stay at longish range and guide his shots in while dodging missiles.
What else would you even bring on an Su-22? Dumb bombs? Why? Four KH-25s, 6 R-60s or 2 R-60s and 2 S-24Bs is more than enough, and that’s exactly what he was bringing in most of those clips.
With CAP, you have the option of staying completely outside the range of IR SAMs, intercepting enemy CAS on it’s way from the air spawn to the battlefield. Why wouldn’t you take advantage of that?
You cannot control that. All you can do is line up the missile directly on the target and fire. The thrust vectoring will then pull whatever lead it thinks it need, be it into the ground, tree, building, whatever. It’s not something you can turn off.
Are we watching the same replay? You dodged easily a half dozen missiles on the way into your second sortie, including the BOLIDE, which is generally the best handling SAM at the tier. You only got hit when you extended away over their spawn without diving to the deck to get out of their line of sight or making any defensive manuevers at all.
Yes, rolling is absolutely essential to dodging missiles. It causes the missile to overlead in a circle around your plane, bleeding it of a ton of speed, while costing you very little. There’s a reason it’s used constantly in the video I sent you.
The other thing that killed you here was being too close. I’m sorry you have a bad monitor, but that’s not a fair reflection on the KH-25s. As seen in the video I posted.
And this is why I always say aim9B is super handy. Or sayin, simply useful wt psychology
He stayed at 3km away. Check below for newer ideas on this one
Maybe for 23bn at 9.7? That one’s also going against stingers - though pulls better. Needs terrain more again.
Not real.
About staying away, CAS can be above the battlefield. Or on the opposite side preparing for attack.
Meanwhile
So I would understand this as failing frontal interception is bad
Not even including the 10km OSA. Tung is left behind anyways.
About interception. CAP have worse radar and at the same time, enemy spawn radar / AF AAA and most importantly, CAP can cross the spawn within 2min. At that moment CAP will lost The position The radar scans The energy in turning back etc. etc. +Probably pausing staring at the spawn zone.
And we have clouds.
Back to these planes vs stingers. Well. The only reliable weapon of CAP is the cannon. If the plane being chased have some idea about dodging shots, he can take the CAP into friendly stinger zone and/or let the stinger do the job. Yes, taking CAP into AA is a smart strategy, but here it’s too effective. We aren’t talking about diodes on/off here anyways.
Usually good enough?
commented above
When I suddenly recalled your idea about testing an 8G turn against stinger. & I’m sure they are on full boosters at the range so speed bleed won’t help.
I’m wondering if that guy can use all 10km range of kh. That first shot on PUMA is the furthest I could have, maybe a somewhat lottery shot, compared to his usual 3.5km pullouts…
This would make sense with my inspection on stinger range, being able to catch up su22 at ~4km if it’s on an overhead route. With the 3.5km pullout he can always get away but… is this applicable for avg players? We never use top guys in random battles to show avg strength. What they are reaching are the theoretical upper bounds. Let’s say… What’s your range on rb05?
It has it’s place, but any reasonably skilled pilot knows that the first thing you do when slotting in behind someone for a shot is to check your surroundings for someone in a position to slot in on your six. Basic awareness of the situation renders low G missiles non-issues, so long as you have some energy to play with.
Around about 8.3-8.7, the comparative power levels of CAS start to become very wide. Before then, any reasonably agile, reasonably small airframe with a useable anti to ground loadout is useful, and the gap between the various planes isn’t that big. A P-47 is impressive, but you can just as easily take out a Bearcat, a Typhoon, a Do-335 or other comparable options and do just about as well.
But after that point, as SPAA becomes far more competent, CAS options become far more restrictive. CCIP on smaller airframes works at a lower BR, or with careful pop up attacks, but from about 9.0 onwards you really want guided munitions, preferably fire and forget or otherwise self guiding.
My point is the BN isn’t a great example here, as while it’s CAS ability isn’t completely appalling, it’s not as good as other options, like the Swiss Hunter which gets two fire and forget Mavericks on an overall better platform. You have to judge CAS versus SPAA against the high water marks, not just against whatever plane can be taken up at that tier.
If the CAS vehicle is loitering over the battlefield, then surely all it would take is to spawn one of these supposedly undodgable SAMs and deal with him that way, right?
CAP’s primary advantage is that it can reach and shoot down CAS that’s avoiding friendly SPAA, principly by sitting at it’s maximum range and salvoing off guided munitions. That, or intercepting CAS before it gets into firing range, by camping the enemy airspawn. Using it to shoot down CAS over the AO is generally a waste, as you rightly point out, it’s highly vulnerable to enemy SPAA while doing so.
Without aircraft spotting, missiles are a credible threat. Even 10 G start missiles can catch people out if you sneak up on them. Similarly, you can use the lack of spotting to sneak into range to onetap them with a burst before they even realize you’re there.
Unless there’s any amount of obstructions in the way. If the target plane is at reasonably low altitude and diving, the missile will overlead right into the ground. If they’re going tranverse, it will hit any useful cover near you.
You made an incorrect manuever. Just pulling in one direction isn’t going to spoof the missile. It can pull 13G, you can pull 8G. I think you can do the math on that.
That’s why you roll at the same time. Picture in your head the missile’s target lock. It sees your plane and where it’s headed, and adjusts it’s lead to intercept that course. You pull in one direction, it follows you, and since it has enough G limit it will hit you.
Now pull, and start to roll. Now, it’s pulling 13Gs in one direction, only to have to pull it around in a circle to keep trying to intercept your course. Meanwhile, because your plane is actively rolling, it’s not getting anywhere near where the missile thinks it would be if it just kept pulling in the direction it’s currently pulling. At the same time, the missile is pulling maximum Gs in opposing directions, bleeding it of energy, and making it less easily able to pull back in to hit you.
Speed bleed always helps. It helps against jets even at maximum thrust, and it helps against missiles with burning boosters (To a lesser extent, admittedly, but still).
He can pull it off, meaning replicated what he does, anyone else can too. The only difference is having a decent monitor, allowing you to use the terrible optic from slightly further. But other CAS options with better optics exist at the tier.
I can still remember the 116 9.3-10.3(or some range I forgot) planes that can do CAS;
And this is what I’m against.
I don’t say a category is strong because a few op vehicles are strong. Same logic applies to low tier heli, we won’t say those ffar carriers are playable for as11 carrier can shoot missile at 3.5km away. There are too many CAS and/or CAP that won’t do well here, bringing the overall strength down. I’ve stated this view on f58 before, along with a4e q5L ofc. Check everyone’s lineup for more of the poor planes.
So CAP got no food. bruh.
It’s rare case for a CAP to see a single CAS, and he needs the CAS to be brained but not too brained, and maintain a position/ visual/ fly at the right direction at a right time to do the job, before the AA got him/ before he tries to exchange with AA.
And some OSA reaches 10km away. And planes are advised to stick to the ground/limit their maneuvers in some other ways to avoid them
Generally wasting 600sp.
As long as you have the position and energy at the right moment, without being heard and without being found by spawn radar
This is not how we calculate load needed for a maneuvering target.
me going back to 10.3 matches
While f105 and f111, etc.etc.
BVM and ariete, both top tanks, bvm strong, ariete needs help.
Oh, and, what’s your range with rb05?
If you can’t get the spaa in a plane spawn a tank and counter them on the ground.
Clearly you understand the concept of dynamic range based on parameters for A2G weapons, just apply the same for
Then are we in agreement that the missile will always impact your aim point if given adequate launch parameters ?
If so it falls upon the user to adequately manage your aim point based on the actions of your target.
I also have thousands of hours in this game, hundreds of smart weapons dropped, and I demonstrated that I can consistently hit AS-30 shots from 11km away.
Consecutive launches with no miss.
Your plane like your missile doesn’t have free will, it goes where you tell it to. I explained and demonstrated how you can strike a SPAA without flying at it.
Cap doesn’t just appear behind you. If you see something that can jeopardize your attack run, you don’t proceed until you’ve dealt with it, be it by killing it, or putting yourself out of reach for the duration of your attack.
And while the missile is flying you’re still free to switch in and out of the pod to maintain situational awareness if you feel threatened.
Agree as well, and that’s an issue. CAP deal with any given threat vastly better than SPAAs, so either CAP needs the same availabilty as SPAA, or SPAA need to be as capable as CAP.
Today’s devblog gives me a hunch that things are about to not improve at best.
Massively agree as well. Unfortunately there’s nothing Gaijin can do to player psychology that incentivize using AA systems as AA systems. Also playing AA is innately boring and unrewarding, and I doubt Gaijin aims to change that.
CAS should outrange SPAA. It costs 10x as much to spawn CAS afterall.
just because it costs more does not entitle the player to getting free kills.
ah yes. CAS, beside outranging any other ground vehicle such as tanks and IFVs that cant counter them at all, should outrange single vehicle class meant to be dealing with them. Briliant balance decision.
Just because SPAA is “meant to be dealing with them” doesn’t entitle SPAA to free kills.
SPAA being more powerful requires SPAA costing more. That’s just balance 101.
lol.
Nobody cares about making stats.
Me Spawning OSA at that moment
xD
Ok, stop crying. Is not the SPAA problems, is the BR itself got huge problems.This BR range is f up by Gaijin’s decompression, so is normal to see this many weird stuff at this BR range
@Beeschurger @Pangolin_Fan Guys please do not spam the topic with stat shaming and personal disagreements.
If you wish to keep going, use DM’s instead.
Thx.
no problem chief.
Wow, a cool mode? I wish I saw you more often.