Just because you don’t see it doesn’t it mean it’s not possible. The reason you don’t see it is because France doesn’t have anything to make a lineup around 10.3.
My point was not that the Jaguar was the most effective CAS plane in the bracket, but that the Jaguar cannot be threatened by SPAAs at it’s BR, and that is fact.
If a plane carries weapons that can strike out of reach from danger, but they choose to put themselves in danger anyway, it’s not the danger’s fault.
By nature guided missiles don’t miss, they go where you tell them to, when you don’t have to choose between guiding, or dodging, missing is user error.
If your target goes into cover, it is what it is.
Missing the kill also is what it is, but by picking your target and a relatively short TTI, it’s not a big issue.
Sure if you fire one at 400km/h while dragging on the floor, the range drop, but then again this isn’t really on the missile. From the GFRB airspawn, your missile will reach 11km.
There is no usecase where striking from near max range is not useful
Again, I’m not making a point about the Jaguar’s usefulness, simply illustrating the issue with the CAS-SPAA relationship.
That’s the issue, the theoretical max range of the best 10.3 SPAA is not only lower than the effective range of the best 10.3 standoff weapon, but also of the less good standoff weapons, and it must rely on the CAS players making egregious mistakes or flying garbage like the A-10 to stand a chance.
You own the SEM, you should know what the AS-30L is capable of.
Finished the 2s6 and now spading pantsir and man CAS players here are different, its like going from a bronze lobby to a grandmaster in a shooter. You virtually never get any of these free kills from airspawn, and everyone has FNF AGMs etc. and you are fighting stuff like the f15/typhoon that just dance all over you if they have a clue as to how to play.
Theres a lot to learn and get better at with manually leading SACLOS missiles at longer ranges towards manuevering targets and im not the best, but it honestly feels hopeless trying to land a hit on a plane flying at an off aspect from you 8+ KM in the pantsir.
Also the pantsir has quite the learning curve, probably need to spend at least a few hours in it to get all the systems down, and even more when it comes to aiming missiles. You gotta get a feel for where the missile is in relation to the target and lead it manually a considerable amount for it to have any chance of hitting.
A lot of people also probably dont understand difference between a point lock and target lock, I didn’t until recently.
Also IDK still but say I launch a mav with 6km tracking, at 10km+ at a point target, does the seeker pick up the guy once it gets within 6km if hes still there and decides to start moving? Or is it stuck in point lock the entire time? Im not even sure how big the FOV on the seeker is if it can and how far you would even need to move by the time it reaches 6km to be outside of it.
I mean, it can out range SPAA however it barely does, as well as that you’re making it out as if the missile doesn’t take time to travel at all in which it can be intercepted.
At 10.3 there are more effective cas planes, as they are largely better platforms.
id rather use the A10A for CAS at 10.3 than the Jaguar A due to the sheer fact it has a substantially better load out.
What you should say is its not the most effective , but longest range.
Theres a distinction between effectiveness and effective range.
Cause I bet you that an A10 will do more than the 2 kills a jag can acquire.
So this contradicts itself as an answer to what I said. for the missile to have a shorter guidance time and a higher kill chance percentage, you cannot keep both the chance of killing hte enemy high and hang 11km out without likely losing the target.
Then why bring up the fact the jaguar can fire at 11km as if it massively out ranges SPAA at its BR when in reality it barely out ranges them, also if you fire from GFRB Airspawn you are more than 11km out so yeah.
Im well aware what the As-30L is capable of, hence why im here saying this to you that I know it’s not very likely to have that sort of effect.
A10, A7D all those platforms are still extremely capable, their vulnerability isnt SPAA its CAP
I mean that is a genuinely fair point though, even the A4 in isreal at 9.3 should likely be 9.7 with GBUs etc
If you’re on your way into the battlefield, the absolute top priority should always be to check for enemy SPAA threats. No matter the tier, that’s always step one. If you fail to pay attention and get slapped by SPAA, especially when simply flying into range of your weapons, that’s entirely your fault.
I really shouldn’t have to prove that everyone always checks their six after a run, because the many people I’ve slapped with MANPADs seems to suggest there’s quite a few that don’t.
Regardless, the important point is that frontal attacks are literally always in the field of view of the pilot. Rear attack only are if they choose to look back.
Hey look! A brick that can only pull 8Gs, effortlessly dodging every single missile fired at him. So long as you have any energy in the tank, anything over 6-7Gs is usually enough to dodge missiles consistently. That does not require full inputs to achieve on most planes.
This only works if you can see the plane from over the horizon. Most of the time, that’s not the case, as that requires the SPAA to be sitting on high ground, which usually makes them a sitting duck for enemy tanks.
I’d also mention the 9M39 again, which has a caged seeker and cannot be fired in an arc.
Cover for SPAA is already at a premium, especially on the large proportion of maps where leaving the immediate spawn area invites getting sniped from random positions halfway across the map. It’s often not an option to move from cover to cover while engaging enemy aircraft.
Tracking missile trails to their source is not remotely difficult. The missile is being fired directly at the plane from the SPAA. That means all you need to do is just draw a line in your head to complete the missile trail back to where it came from. Even if it’s vague, you now know the general area where an SPAA is hiding.
What about attacking someone else when an AAA spawned?
In that vid he entered at 2-3km height, and no strela or OSA are present. At sinai he finally got some terrain after his attack, at magnot he got a 2v1 on a single ozelot. I don’t see any attempt on pop ups xD. I think I shouldn’t assume that you are trying to say dodging frontal ones is worth a mention… though full load su22 won’t dodge that anyways. Do use kh.
Oh btw, ASUS Tuf 27 inch 1440p 144hz Monitor
This is why he is using that 1x magnification so smoothly and kept his range. bruh my 14in
hop in a mig21f13 / mig23m, the main CAP force of sov 9.3 / 10.3 lineups. I could’ve made a mistake here before: subsonics do dodge stingers better than these 2. Maybe except for g91?
Map issue. Flat maps with trees and distant mountains will force a plane/heli to be high enough, or it can be the case of west coast of abandoned factory. The pradesh or italy would be better… Rhine 50/50, buildings can cover both sides.
Use the launch tube TVC wisely
The longest engagement I can remember was spinning around a small building in my impchapp to hide from a few flared enemies.
None of them strafed me for they all died to pop-ups against rapier. No crit guys left for me…(
Anyways this is again map issue, some maps good some maps retarded. Spawn camping encouragement designs should be another topic.
The 200m radius “vague”, buildings included…
For this one I’d switch to a op cas to deal with it. but nah. This topic is not for those ones.
The only SPAA it can meets that it justs barely outranges are the Tor and HQ-17.
If you manage your launch parameters, you get range, simple as.
I literally talked about the TTI, your target has about 20s before the missile gets there, it’s more than enough to get in cover provided that you know the missile is coming and that you have available cover, and since there are so few vehicles with a LWS, most people will never know thus won’t react. There are also ways to defeat LWS.
In theory maybe an Osa can intercept it, in practice I’ve never seen that happen.
If you read what I wrote, you can see that that was indeed my point.
The reason I only bring up the Jaguar is because I play it, and thus know firsthand how it works. I don’t own the A-10 or A-7, but from a glance I would wager that the A-7D is the best payload/performance compromise. The A-10 is far too much of a fat sow to not hinder the AGM-65, and so you probably need to spend quite a lot of time climbing for it to reach it’s maximum potential.
You missile will always strike where you point it provided that it’s in range, and that there’s no obstruction.
As demonstrated above, range is never going to be the issue, that leaves obstruction, or for a WT specific issue, your target dying before the missile gets there. Specific to SA weapons, your target also can’t escape the capture zone of your pod unless you commit a mistake.
For obstruction, it depends on the map, but it is ultimately something that you have control over, if you see someone already playing around something, you pick another target, it’s that simple.
For your target dying from something else, again you have some control over that as well. Pick targets that are not already engaged by friendlies, pick a group of target to operate a quick switch, there are options.
No launch is ever 100% guaranteed, but even with semi-active weapons the bulk of what can cause it to not hit the target is on the user.
Because this thread is about the alleged power difference between CAS and SPAAs in the 9.3 to 10.3 bracket. As demonstrated the Jaguar can effectively hit targets at 11km, as we both brought up the longest range 10.3 SPAA still has a lower max theoretical range than that. If you use the max effective range of the Osa, it is indeed outranged by several kilometers.
That seems relevant to the balance between CAS and SPAAs.
Moreso since we both know that the Jaguar isn’t alone in that situation, and as demonstrated getting a 11km shot isn’t some insane feat that require extremely specific, hard to attain, conditions.
That is precisely the issue, SPAA can’t deal with even some of the worst CAS planes as long as they carry decent standoff weapons. Notably the Su-25 is a far superior airframe to the A-10, carrying better standoff weapons, but since it can’t effectively use said standoff weapons without taking massive risks, they always run dumb ordnance. In doing so the Su-25 is balanced with the SPAA of it’s bracket.
We’re talking about against SPAA at those BR’s who are well aware it is coming.
Most people will smoke or move.
20 seconds is a long time for a missile to be in the air man.
It however can and does regularely get threatened by SPAA, for the missile to actually be effective and not being thrown from 11km away, you have to get into the Maximimum attack zone of the SPAA.
Sure you can skirt around and try fire off your AS30 staying out of range but in all likely hood to get the missile off, at a range where it wont miss or fail you are within spaa range is my point.
targets move constantly, 11km and 20 second flight time is more than enough to lose the target
How are laser guided ATGMs better than a TV guided one that is fire and forget, that is just nonsense mate.
also super etendard in GRB is 11.0 now so it sees top tier Spaa which can outrange it easily
It cant outrange it by several KM if its 11km max range… its 700 meteres out range by.
As well as this I am aware that the OP is complaining as he brought a lower BR jet to a higher BR game, which is inevitably going to suffer for it.
I am not saying SPAA is OP or CAS are doing worse at all.
Could you please elaborate more? Because as far as i know they arent even in the same TT.
I wouldnt say they are doing worse in anti-air duty, mainly because they can just spawn camp the airspawn giving them energy advantage and element of surprise, but i agree that SP cost for CAP loadouts is ridiculous.
Between casual AA and casual A-4B my money is on A-4B. AA requires significantly more effort to bring down A-4B.
Ah yes. Watching you climb high enough to launch an AS-30 from that massive range, waiting a minute for it to hit while doing nothing, while the missile is on radar, and staying in plain sight, completely exposed, just to guarantee it hits. You could not get a more skill issued SPAA player.
And just for the record, the Super Étendard is 11.0 in Ground RB. Not 10.3.
I’m starting to think about monitors… that guy in the su22 video didn’t even used the mouse guidance trick… With the 27in monitor, he spots, fires and tracks almost beyond the rendering of the video. afaik if I’m doing that sinai santal shot, the aimpoint shift by one touch on my mouse would take the missile 20m away.,
Majority of people will try to blow up the mothership unaware that they can’t. Better SPAA players will try to get in cover, those that smoke will get splash damaged.
Thing is, having no obligation to take care of the SPAA since it can’t touch me, I can also fire at tanks that won’t know it’s coming, leaving the SPAA to try and shoot down that ordnance, provided it can lock it, and provided it can hit it. Only the Osa has a missile with the potential to do that.
I don’t know what to tell you there, I don’t know why you think a missile like the AS-30 loses capability the further it travels. It’s sustainer burns for the entire flight, and it’s being helped by gravity. It can’t turn great, but even a target going fullspeed perpendicular to it’s flight path isn’t going to dodge, worst case it’ll be a splash impact instead of direct.
Similarly, you can’t miss when you have a targeting pod that has lock on. Just be mindful if it locks a wreck.
Setup your approach, pick a target that can’t get in cover quickly, fire as soon as the rangefinders hits 11, turn 90°, go in pod to oversee that it doesn’t switch target, and collect. It’s really just that easy.
Again, how do you lose the target ? No ground vehicle is fast enough to get out of your capture zone, the only thing they can do is get behind hardcover and you are free to pick a target that doesn’t have cover available. On urban maps just use a guided bomb for the top down trajectory.
Look at the replay I sent, launch on a Stryker that gets destroyed shortly after but since I’m overseeing the launch I can switch to a T-72 nearby and still kill something.
Faster than the AGM-65, better payload, and being able to stay in the guidance loop helps against unwanted target switch. When mounted on the A-10 the AGM-65 really doesn’t get enough energy, much like the Kh-25ML is seriously hindered by the targeting suite of the base Su-25. That was a purely subjective statement from my personal preference.
Not the point, I switched to the SEM only to demonstrate that the AS-30 performed the same when fired from either plane since you don’t seem to have the Jaguar. The main reason that makes the SEM 11.0 in GFRB is that it has a much higher payload with up to 6 GBU.
Only valid if both the SPAA and plane have neither speed nor altitude difference. The SPAA’s missile is fighting against gravity while pulling lead with no initial impulse. It’s constantly wasting energy while in the case of the AS-30 it’s constantly gaining energy. You acknowleded that earlier.
Unfortunately both the average CAS player and the average SPAA player isn’t spending time thinking about why they do the things they do. It hides the discrepancy between SPAA and CAS capibility from 8.7 and up.
It’s not an issue in a void, the format of WT greatly participate to worsen the situation, but the short version is that for the SPAA to be of value it needs to either destroy any planes before they get off their ordnance, or intercept all of it. For CAS, anything you destroy is helping your team, your objectives are significantly more lax than that of the SPAA, while you often have significantly better tools.
Only the Pantsir is seemingly able to be effective because it’s good at catching ordnance, but it’s still vulnerable to a variety of strategies.
And with my monitor I can only keep 1km form the target when kh25 hits. That’s achieved on a known target with a furthest firing range, determined by the furthest range at which I can clearly see the enemy when the missile arrives. a.k.a. fire before aim and hit when aligned.
Not doing very proper defensives after pull-outs in this game, for luckily our team has overwhelmed AA by number and I’m seeking for efficiency. For the entering I would suggest you won’t judge a aggressive one like in the vid.
Will adding rolling work here? I don’t think this hit on 8G pull is close to miss. Will going further before pulling work? They are fast enough. Will pulling earlier work? I’m not staying too close to ground map.
Did chose to attack spawn camper instead of AAA, to help with the battle than myself.
You are aware that the higher a plane is the easier it is for the a missile to hit it right?
You also state the osa has a max range of 10.3km, then state the max effective range of ES30 is 11km,
thats a difference of 700 meters, not several kilometers.
I also maintain the argument htat if the missile is flying for a huge 22 seconds that it is likely to miss, unless the target is absolutely stationary for that amount of time.
Being able to drop 3 or 4 missiles as you pass by from 4km or 5km away is substantially better than two at 11km. which aren’t gaurunteed to hit regardless.
As well as this, the A10 has sa substantially better overall payload than the Jaguar. Its issue is its over all FP, which it actually can use relatively well in a 10.3 game, however go up to 11.0 etc it falls apart.
If you are actively participating in the match, maintaining 11km.
Watching for CAP
SPAA.
And making sure you remain locked onto the target is how you can lose a target.
Not how they work either and if you are dropping a GBU from top down trajectory then you will be within the SPAA zone
I use the GR1A extensively and even its GBUs which can be slung at about 5km are difficult to get top down.
Did I say the missile slowed down at all?
I stated that the missile will be off target due to the target moving, or smoking neither of which calls teh AS30 bad at all.
Im explaining to you that in my over 3000 hours that the range of which laser guided munitions effectively work is greately exagurated. Exhibit even on the best platform in game arguably the typhoon, with its brimstones.
You can miss, you can still lose lock with a targetting pod. And if you are sitting in the pod to ensure it doesnt lose its lock then you are not going to manuevere out of SPAA range when you glide into it, as well as are not going ot be watching for CAP-
Agreed but even then it still isn’t as effective as just spawnign a plane.
Overall, SPAAGs I believe some of them have too strong anti ground capabilities, however the best bet is to spawn a plane as CAP
Situational awareness. IE not hyper fixating on a single target to the exclusion of all else. If you’ve played Air RB, you’ll know, you’re always at your most vulnerable when you’re lining up a shot on someone else.
He has guided weaponry, which most good CAS options do at this tier. He has no need for pop up attacks, he can just stay at longish range and guide his shots in while dodging missiles.
What else would you even bring on an Su-22? Dumb bombs? Why? Four KH-25s, 6 R-60s or 2 R-60s and 2 S-24Bs is more than enough, and that’s exactly what he was bringing in most of those clips.
With CAP, you have the option of staying completely outside the range of IR SAMs, intercepting enemy CAS on it’s way from the air spawn to the battlefield. Why wouldn’t you take advantage of that?
You cannot control that. All you can do is line up the missile directly on the target and fire. The thrust vectoring will then pull whatever lead it thinks it need, be it into the ground, tree, building, whatever. It’s not something you can turn off.
Are we watching the same replay? You dodged easily a half dozen missiles on the way into your second sortie, including the BOLIDE, which is generally the best handling SAM at the tier. You only got hit when you extended away over their spawn without diving to the deck to get out of their line of sight or making any defensive manuevers at all.
Yes, rolling is absolutely essential to dodging missiles. It causes the missile to overlead in a circle around your plane, bleeding it of a ton of speed, while costing you very little. There’s a reason it’s used constantly in the video I sent you.
The other thing that killed you here was being too close. I’m sorry you have a bad monitor, but that’s not a fair reflection on the KH-25s. As seen in the video I posted.
