SPAA at 9.3-10.3 is hilariously OP and i see no one talking about it

[Creastroy]

@Beeschurger

is perfectly understandable, according to you?

Rarity in models never means rarity in battles.
OP vehicles don’t be weak for it’s only one model.

@Beeschurger

if your plane is equipped with RWR

Do you mean No rwr for planes of the same br, and those that can be triggered by friendlies for higher ones? If only spo10 can distinguish directions!

@Beeschurger

doesnt mean he can egage you

Pause from ground work, take cover, get prepared. You will know if he decides to dive for entering at another direction, and change cover direction accordingly.

@Beeschurger

You dont need to see everyone.

I thought positioning rather than staying in the spawn is a part of SPAA skills, again

@Beeschurger

do several things to minimize risks

I don’t think tossing at 5km, or even bullpup at 5km, have the same skill requirement as driving and shooting at close range only with a gepard.

@Beeschurger

I thought you said you play for fun

Getting the 700sp killed without tossed weapon hits is not fun.

@Beeschurger

those examples

sovs does spawn a lot su22 and su25 with flares but, at the br stingers serve them well
frenchies are indeed the poorest guys xD

@Beeschurger

Not always possible due to map layouts.

Then it’s back to ground team performances.

@Beeschurger

Again

English language suffering from info density again

@Beeschurger

You dont need to do crazy movie like post stall manuevers to defeat a 13G missile launched from ground with no speed advantage.

Sounds like you have never played against stingers in bricks and energy bleeders…
like, ofc, I’ve survived all 16 stingers from a mad lav in a hunter, but at the same time I’ve got killed by 3 in 21f13 and 4 in 23m… All with only CAP loads.

@Beeschurger

No the issue of CAS runs deeper, moreso with how this topic is named.

Doesn’t op corresponds to “better than most others”? e.g. Mig21S is op, but skill is needed, br is compressed, and other more op planes are present…

Among 116 tech tree vehicles (counting only 10.3-11.3) and many event, squadron, prems, SPAA is too good for many. At the same time op CAS got their capabilities to smash AAA again.

All are balance issues

And SPAA kills (and even suppress) planes better than CAP bruhhhh

[Creastroy]

Not in the current game mode. For this thing we’d better have dedicated SPAA squads, and have dumb weapons only for CAS, or trim the mode in some other ways.

For the current mode, put a pantsir at 9.3-10.3 and it won’t work if players don’t spawn them. And ground will laugh at CAS with lock 24km with your mavB in a pantsir, meanwhile getting no air kills for no one plays air, and get killed by tanks.

@JonnyRocket71218

If you’re not running niche dogshit to kill SPAA, you should have no issues.

Run a Q5L or F58 to forget about every weak planes other than these?

Nah this is not how balance works. We are not talking about these crafts from the beginning.

[山_田_凉]

@Beeschurger

Stop putting words in my mouth, thank you

Please think about what you are saying before saying it. Your post clearly argues against your own point, although you don’t realise it. It is not my responsibility to educate you on how to make your own point.

[Beeschurger]

@Creastroy

Rarity in models never means rarity in battles.
OP vehicles don’t be weak for it’s only one model.

i think theres geniune misunderstanding here then.

Im not asking you about this part, its pretty much clear what you meant.

@Creastroy

F8F is the only thing with the capability at 4.7 stop acting like it’s common thing

Im asking about this part

@Creastroy

F8F is the only thing with the capability at 4.7 stop acting like it’s common thing

as in, what do you mean by “capability”. Capability to what? Or did you want to say that F8F is strong?

@Creastroy

Do you mean No rwr for planes of the same br, and those that can be triggered by friendlies for higher ones?

i said “if” your plane is equipped with RWR.

@Creastroy

If only spo10 can distinguish directions!

It can? granted only in four sectors but it definetively can read direction.

@Creastroy

Pause from ground work, take cover, get prepared. You will know if he decides to dive for entering at another direction, and change cover direction accordingly.

That literally does not relate to what i said whatsoever, that being that just because Gepard can detect you at 10km doesnt mean he can engage you at 10km. Gepard can drive to the other map for all i care, wont change a fact that it cant engage targets at 10km.

@Creastroy

I thought positioning rather than staying in the spawn is a part of SPAA skills, again

i clearly said that CAS plane (see the comment i originally responded to) doesnt need to see everyone.

@Creastroy

I don’t think tossing at 5km, or even bullpup at 5km, have the same skill requirement as driving and shooting at close range only with a gepard.

im not talking about bomb tossing at 5km or guiding bullup. most CAS planes, not saying specifically you, but most CAS planes i shoot down beeline from spawn straight to the target and then act surprised that they got smoked; instead of trying to loiter for a while and watch for opportunity while assesing the battlefield; or trying to make a recon flyover first to try out and draw the fire of any SPAA that might be hiding. Its not guaranteed the SPAA will take the bait, but it sure presents bigger chance of detecting said SPAA than just beelining the target.

@Creastroy

Getting the 700sp killed without tossed weapon hits is not fun.

This has big “i got nuke and i should be allowed to drop it” energy. just because CAS plane costs 700SP does not in any way shape or form entitle the player to dropping its payload succesfully.

@Creastroy

Then it’s back to ground team performances.

with some single cap maps (such as pic related) i dont think that really depends on team.

@Creastroy

Sounds like you have never played against stingers in bricks and energy bleeders…

its still a 13G missile at the end of the day, launched from ground, with no speed advantage.

[SPAA-Chan]

You guys are still discussing this? Yeeeesh. CAS is extremely strong at every tier, AA isn’t balanced appropriately due to many being too strong at fighting tanks. Simple as. If they weren’t, they could be moved a lot lower in BR. From 1.0 to 7.0 and 9.0 to 9.7 I’d argue are the only BR ranges where there is some semblance of balance, all other BRs CAS is generally stronger than AA, with a few select outliers.

[Sternlos]

Gamers im trying to play/spade the zsu23 with the iglas at 9.3 and I don’t think ive landed a single missile kill. Feels like im playing the one at 8.0 at 9.3.

Where is my free point and click kills promised by people in the thread?

[Beeschurger]

@SPAA-Chan

You guys are still discussing this?

I will be six feet deep in stone cold earth before I get bored of arguing with random strangers online! (send help)

[Beeschurger]

@Sternlos

Gamers im trying to play/spade the zsu23 with the iglas at 9.3 and I don’t think ive landed a single missile kill. Feels like im playing the one at 8.0 at 9.3.

which is funny because as far as i know, Iglas are better than stingers since they start pulling sooner. but take it with grain of salt, i dont have the datasheet with me currently.

[Sternlos]

seems like just flaring and then turning a bit is enough to beat it everytime, I’ve probably launched a dozen today and none of them hit, got all my kills with guns.

Staring at helis I can’t do anything about sure is fun. And Im also reminded that US has a ton of fnf mav slingers down here, and the german hunter. Pretty much just die to them every time, im stock so no smoke yet that might help.

Oh ya and the ayit has them too for the rare games against israel.

[Creastroy]

@Beeschurger

i think theres geniune misunderstanding here then.

Same. This one should stop at f8f being op

@Beeschurger

granted only in four sectors

“friendly beep” “another beep” “someone elses beep” All in the front lol

@Beeschurger

doesnt mean he can engage you at 10km

He gets an advantage before engaging.

@Beeschurger

doesnt need to see everyone

So CAS should nerf themselves no matter they see an SPAA or not? :

@Beeschurger

loiter for a while and watch

Yep They do have to check around. Good thing this is still do-able against gepards.

@Beeschurger

“i got nuke and i should be allowed to drop it” energy

“Nuke Needs Flares” energy

@Beeschurger

with some single cap maps

Support Map Threads YES
This sitty one, and Kursk, are indeed bad

@Beeschurger

its still a 13G missile at the end of the day, launched from ground, with no speed advantage.

The 6km is guaranteed by the rocket burn time, so there’s no speed problems, but as far as I know things won’t escape the 6km that fast. On an ingame experiment, a su22 went only ~4km away before getting caught up by a tail-aspect stinger launched after passing overhead. The su22 accelerated from 850kph for best pullout, and is kept in level flight for a best speed. Not an empty one, half fuel, 2kh load.
And they bleed energy with every pull, or is simply a brick, or bleed to a brick ofc not hunter with speed etc.. This won’t be bad at first stinger or the second, but third or forth will be a problem.

@Beeschurger

which is funny because as far as i know, Iglas are better than stingers since they start pulling sooner. but take it with grain of salt, i dont have the datasheet with me currently.

9m39 has a TVC-ish feature that points the missile towards the lead of the enemy when launched (which is done during the 0.7s maneuver delay). It’s not an actual TVC but does help with its off-axis capability. It’s a 10.2g one, but this doesn’t matter that much compared to the nerf on VT fuse: it’s now impact fuse only.

@Sternlos

Where is my free point and click

Was super good before that nerf. Play stingers now, or the lovely OSA below it.
will edit in a bit more after another few matchs

AND
CAP PLEASE THEY DON’T PERFORM BETTER THAN SPAA

[Beeschurger]

@Creastroy

This one should stop at f8f being op

is it? :P Im looking at 4.7 Bearcat payload and it honestly does not seem THAT impressive.

@Creastroy

“friendly beep”

wasnt there patch not soon after RWR rework that basically “nerfed” friendly RWR beeps?

@Creastroy

He gets an advantage before engaging.

knowing that theres enemy plane does not mean AA will be able to engage it succesfully.

@Creastroy

So CAS should nerf themselves no matter they see an SPAA or not?

not even tanks know where enemy tanks are all the time, it should not be different for CAS.

@Creastroy

this is still do-able against gepards.

from my experience that is still pretty doable even at 10.7, as 10.7 CAS planes can observe the battlefield with things like maverick optis or early targetting pods such as on Jag.

@Creastroy

“Nuke Needs Flares”

to be fair the absolute top tier nuke planes should get an upgrade tho.

anyway, just because i used 200SP to spawn a tank does not entitle me to getting a kill, player will simply not intentionally present himself to me as free kill just because i spawned a tank.

with planes it should be no different.

@Creastroy

This sitty one, and Kursk, are indeed bad

look, i agree with you that if AA stays in spawn on larger maps such as Fulda, Maginot or Red Desert, thats entirely on him.

hey, we agree on something!

@Creastroy

so there’s no speed problems

ground launched missile will never have the speed and altitude advantage of air launched missile. longer burn time on stingers (or any ground launched AA missile) is wasted by getting to plane altitude and speed in the first place.

@Creastroy

things won’t escape the 6km that fast

well if they bleed ALL of their speed, for example climbing directly over battlefield right after the attack run, yeah they wont. but then again thats on the CAS player putting himself at massive disadvantage in the first place.

@Creastroy

On an ingame experiment

look if you are willing, im willing to run some tests in custom battles with you (we would have to settle on some future date tho, im currently busy). Im not trying to mock you or anything, I geniunely think best course of action right now would be to simply test stuff to settle things.

@Creastroy

it’s now impact fuse only.

so it is, lmao. RIP Iglas.

[Creastroy]

@Beeschurger

is it?

A2A
Broo ive got pantsir and e2k in im definitely not talking about one capability only

@Beeschurger

wasnt there patch not soon after RWR rework that basically “nerfed” friendly RWR beeps?

Wait even for spo10? :0

@Beeschurger

knowing that theres enemy plane does not mean AA will be able to engage it succesfully.

Back to take cover

thanks to the info I can type and play 23-4m4 at the same time xD chilled

@Beeschurger

not even tanks

Back to get camped/ or any other engagement logics.

@Beeschurger

maverick optis or early targetting pods such as on Jag

Back to how many planes + 2.5-5 fov part

@Beeschurger

entitle

Higher Pk ain’t it?

Now I’m seeing 0-1 A2G kill matches and multiple AAA match (sitting in a 23-4m4). I thought better players should get the sp to get on planes but nah. Can’t be that much skill part like “bad ones got planes, good ones got AAA”

@Beeschurger

hey, we agree on something!

Back to Yep part

@Beeschurger

air launched missile

Air missiles are never an issue for their worse energy performance and seeker capabilities. For 9.x BR, one ground msl and one air msl, stingers and 9B are the most common, but

Compare stinger with 9D/G

Caliber_____________70 vs 127
CXK_______________1.8 vs 3.4
dV_____697.98+588.46 vs 776
rocket time____1.4+5.6 vs 5

That’s too much difference… Solid 500m/s dV advantage, while 9D carriers won’t pass the sound barrier…

maybe for impchapp there can be some issues but what else do you need at 9.0 :D

@Beeschurger

climbing directly

No needed. Horizontal pulls only and they bleed… :(

AND CAPs

@Beeschurger

im currently busy

Do our time zones match :o

[Beeschurger]

@Creastroy

one capability only

i mean were talking about CAS vs. SPAA mostly.

@Creastroy

even for spo10?

not sure, take what i said about this with grain of salt, would need to dig through patch notes.

@Creastroy

Back to take cover

so you are not engaging it then.

@Creastroy

any other engagement logics.

i guess you are right, but earlier you said

@Creastroy

Getting the 700sp killed without tossed weapon hits is not fun.

so thats why i mentioned it.

@Creastroy

Back to how many planes + 2.5-5 fov part

im almost sure most 10.7 CAS planes have some sort of optic aviable.

@Creastroy

Higher Pk ain’t it?

Now I’m seeing 0-1 A2G kill matches and multiple AAA match (sitting in a 23-4m4). I thought better players should get the sp to get on planes but nah. Can’t be that much skill part like “bad ones got planes, good ones got AAA”

My comment is not aiming at higher PK or skill level.

My comment is aiming whenever someone deserves the kill just because they payed more SP for their vehicle.

@Creastroy

That’s too much difference… Solid 500m/s dV advantage, while 9D carriers won’t pass the sound barrier…

Again im nearly sure air-launched 9D from plane with both speed and alt advantage will outperform ground launched stinger.

Also, logically speaking, something ATAS launched from helicopter should outperform 9D launched from plane but i dont believe thats the case. Albeit again this one would be best settled with testing.

@Creastroy

Do our time zones match

Im sure we can work something out if you want. Im EU GMT+1, usually active from 7 to 10PM during week and basically anytime during weekend.

[O_Warrior0]

I drop a 5-ton bomb from a good old PE-8 4KM above the enemy spawn and guess what? all SPAA died.

[Creastroy]

@Beeschurger

so you are not engaging it then.

Get the info, know when he will come, maybe stare with 3rd person, and pop out for shooting

@Beeschurger

10.7

“Me trying to figure out which one’s dimmer like a living thing on a10al”
Anyways, 10.7 many do, <=10.3 many don’t. And there’s kh29t only guys at 11.0.

This reminds me of jagIS vs tor… 5min reverse climb to 10km high for the gbu… oww

@Beeschurger

deserves the kill

I’m thinking about balance, with ~same skills both sides should have the ~same Pk when they are taking the ~same risks/resource input. With a higher resource input, CAS ought to have higher Pk, and since this is 3-4 times sp of a 2nd spawn tank (which can do much) / 7+ times of a SPAA, I’d use “deserve” to describe the payback

@Beeschurger

settled with testing

Try statshark missile sims?

btw stinger also have smaller weight, wing area and aoa, which should lose less energy to maneuvering
Also gravity should be considered carefully - This is a faq in BVR communities, about how the game models gravity and whether it’s that noticeable compared to drag. afaik for large fast fox3s they think drag is usually far larger and air density is the main issue.

@Beeschurger

work something out

Added to fwend list

[SPAA-Chan]

@Creastroy

The 6km is guaranteed by the rocket burn time, so there’s no speed problems, but as far as I know things won’t escape the 6km that fast. On an ingame experiment, a su22 went only ~4km away before getting caught up by a tail-aspect stinger launched after passing overhead. The su22 accelerated from 850kph for best pullout, and is kept in level flight for a best speed. Not an empty one, half fuel, 2kh load.

Doesn’t the Su 22 have flares? If they didn’t know how to flare IRCCM missiles, I’d recommend Defyn’s video on the subject and playing a few air RB matches to practice!

[Sternlos]

I was able to finally get a kill with the zsu missiles, just needed someone to job for me. Also had back to back games that basically show everything i’ve talked about in this thread.

https://files.catbox.moe/oe6vav.mp4
This is the type of CAS player making these threads, just loitering above the battle field, pulls up and bleeds energy and dies to a 10g missile while 2km above our spawn. If you are wondering why im shooting its because my missile would not launch after getting a lock and im thinking lmb was the bind or something.

https://files.catbox.moe/3nb8x3.mp4
Then we have this example, he’s lawnmowing, looking for tracers/scouted target to come in low and collect a free kill and unfortunately for me that’s what happened as soon as I shot the other guy down. There was literally nothing I could have done in this case but play in a better position behind a building, but even then this thing is so big and slow and he was already basically in posistion IDK. I heard him coming was looking in that direction and didn’t have any time to do anything but trade kills if I somehow got guns on him in the 0.5 seconds I had to shoot.

If you play like this you are basically untouchable, or the odds are always in your favor, that is staying low, staying fast, and waiting for scout/hit market or tracer or smoke plume to engage. Also I HATE that CAS can see scouted targets, I died so many times the past few days just because I had the unfortune to be in visual of a light tank or the BS scout drone while CAS was up and its just not fun.

[JuicyKuuuuki]

@Sternlos

If you are wondering why im shooting its because my missile would not launch after getting a lock and im thinking lmb was the bind or something.

I noticed this happens more often in Winter maps than others with the Type 93 SAM. I hate it cuz its what got me killed a number of times when it fired late. No idea if its a bug or something Gaijin just did on purpose soooo yea…So many bug reports been sent about it yet its still there.

[Pangolin_Fan]

I once killed a Pantsir with an He 51. Clearly it’s cuz CAS is OP and SPAA needs a buff.

[Beeschurger]

@Pangolin_Fan

once killed a Pantsir with an He 51.

@Pangolin_Fan

I’ve shot multiple planes down with my ASU-57 as well.

:)