SPAA at 9.3-10.3 is hilariously OP and i see no one talking about it

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

That’s completely unrelated. An SPAA that’s OP against planes at a BR where only 1-2 planes spawn a game, but can’t cap or kill tanks is less useful than an SPAA which can CAP and kill tanks.

You haven’t proven this, but I’ll get to that later.

@Pangolin_Fan

K/D doesn’t matter when you get less than 2 kills per game.

Ditto

@Pangolin_Fan

Moving 50ft after a plane with CCRP drops a bomb is possible on every ma[.

Not every spawn has multiple pieces of cover, and if I recall correctly, you said only SPAA players who don’t know what they’re doing would make themselves vulnerable to SACLOS weapons by leaving cover.

But you’re right CCRP isn’t a huge threat against SPAA that know what they’re doing. But it’s also an unusual threat that many wouldn’t know they have to counter. There aren’t many planes that rely on it as their only CAS method, as most rely either on dumb bombs or CCIP/guided munitions.

@Pangolin_Fan

Fair few? I haven’t seen a single one who knows what he’s doing.

And yet the SPAA at this tier as so broken overpowered that they desperately need to be moved up? Despite the fact that no-one at the tier has any idea what they’re doing, according to you?

@Pangolin_Fan

You can hear them coming, and shoot them down b4 they get a chance to drop. Unless you’re really trash, then worst case scenario is a trade.

Directional sound is and has always been spotty in game, even if it consents to let you hear the plane coming before it’s right on top of you, it doesn’t give you an accurate bearing to preaim, just a vague direction.

Such low altititude popup attacks also prevent RADAR lock, meaning you have to freeaim the shot. Not hard if you have a lot of experience with SPAA, but less experienced players are likely to fumble with the RADAR instead.

@Pangolin_Fan

Strange, you never say that about ppl who don’t play CAS.

If the topic of conversation was about someone who hasn’t played CAS saying that CAS was objectively OP, that would be relevant. However, it isn’t. Don’t try to deflect.

@Pangolin_Fan

The data we have. ~SNIP~

Wow. A sample size of 6. Impressive. Surely, we can expect to see tremendous effect sizes from such a comprehensive amount of data, and draw sweeping conclusions from it.

However, it is ever so slightly smaller than the sample size of 1204 that I was using for my assertion. And keep in mind the actual proportion of CAS is likely to be somewhat higher, as this only accounts for the kills attributed to the Sgt York, which means kills by other SPAA, CAP jets and the non-US team of each map are not counted.

So, let’s hear it. How do Thunderskill players manage to generate planes to shoot down that you assert aren’t real?

@Pangolin_Fan

Sorry bud, that’s your argument. 50% of your argument is strawman, and you haven’t brought any sort of facts to the table.

This is rather hilarious to read. I’d love for you to quote the “50% of my argument that’s strawman”, and point out that countering a sample size of over a thousand with personal anecdotes and a sample size of 6 is not exactly putting the facts on your side.

But hey, since you like personal anecdotes so much, I decided to oblige you. Here’s the first game I played at 9.0 today (8.7 at a 0.3 BR uptier). I took the time to load up the server replay and count the CAS that spawned. There were 11. Here’s the server replay so you don’t have to take my word for it.

Mi-4
H-34
A-4B
IL-28
Another Mi-4
Allouette
F-80C
IL-28SH
Meteor Mk 4
UH-1B
Me-262 A1a/U1

Now, unlike you, I don’t claim this provides a particularly accurate represenation of the average game at the tier. But surely you can see how unconvincing small sample sizes can be.

[Cyvell_シ]

@Pangolin_Fan

You can hear them coming, and shoot them down b4 they get a chance to drop. Unless you’re really trash, then worst case scenario is a trade.

If you’ve ever played as an SPAA at 9.0 - 10.0 you would know that thats just plain wrong, not sure what the issue is with the sound system but there are countless times where i don’t know a plane exists unless i see it on a radar (which SAM SPAA dont usually have) or seen it with your own eyes. This is of course mostly personal experience, but i stand by the fact that SPAA are underpowered in part due to the limited space they have to move (only two dimensions as oppose to CAS) but also due to aforementioned arguments such as minor adjustments by the pilot can make up for gun SPAA shots.

As for addressing the amount of CAS at this tier (9.0 - 10.0) playing against the CAS horsemen (A4 variants, G91, SAAB105G), you will easily get a bad streak of games where you get CASed once or multiple times of one of these aircraft.

(edit: coud’ve phrased this message better, sounded waaay too in over myself)

[JuicyKuuuuki]

@Cyvell_シ

you will easily get a bad streak of games where you get CASed once or multiple times of one of these aircraft.

Ehh dunno about that boss. Played a lot of 9.0 to 9.7 Br battles and killed more CAS planes then I died to them. Never had bad streak of games to those jets or CAS overall…like ever. Mainly because im always aware of incoming CAS along with me dealing with CAS on capable vehicles. Not just using SPAA but other tanks with HE-VT rounds available. If I have that round available, I’m responsible for taking down CAS with it. Even at 6.0, died to CAS twice out of 10 games (have this recent 10 games recorded).

But yea, back to the main post, there are a lot less CAS used around 9.3 to 10.3 and SPAA are not OP. If anything, its stingers are not performing as they do irl.

[Cyvell_シ]

@JuicyKuuuuki

Ehh dunno about that boss. Played a lot of 9.0 to 9.7 Br battles and killed more CAS planes then I died to them. Never had bad streak of games to those jets or CAS overall…like ever.

Fair enough, its all down to personal experience, sadly cant back the claim up with cold hard evidence

@JuicyKuuuuki

Mainly because im always aware of incoming CAS along with me dealing with CAS on capable vehicles. Not just using SPAA but other tanks with HE-VT rounds available. If I have that round available, I’m responsible for taking down CAS with it. Even at 6.0, died to CAS twice out of 10 games (have this recent 10 games recorded).

Although i do agree being aware of CAS is equally important to focusing on ground, ground is a much more prevalent threat than an A4E up in space that i cant do zilch about anyway, and how aware can i be about a SAAB105G buzzing about when I’m under fire from multiple ground based enemies. It’s annoying to have to divert half my attention and load an entirely new shell just to try to combat air ineffectively, or am unable to all together due to a complete lack og HE-VT shells (a few TTs that I’m aware of two of which I play, Japan and Britain, dont get VT shells)

It’s also problematic all together to have to forget everything you’re doing to find a tree to hide under and pop smoke only to get smacked with a AGM or GPS Bomb anyway. SPAA in its current form just isn’t capable of countering CAS, and if there is an SPAA usually it will get flagged brighter than a Christmas tree.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Aegis270

Not every spawn has multiple pieces of cover, and if I recall correctly

point is invalid as it’s completely unrelated to what I said.

@Aegis270

you said only SPAA players who don’t know what they’re doing would make themselves vulnerable to SACLOS weapons by leaving cover.

If you’re getting attacked by multiple vehicles at once, you’re gonna die. Why should 1 SPAA fightinig multiple planes be stacked in the SPAA’s favor?

@Aegis270

But you’re right CCRP isn’t a huge threat against SPAA that know what they’re doing. But it’s also an unusual threat that many wouldn’t know they have to counter.

Not my fault if they don’t care to learn.

@Aegis270

Directional sound is and has always been spotty in game, even if it consents to let you hear the plane coming before it’s right on top of you, it doesn’t give you an accurate bearing to preaim, just a vague direction.

The problem clearly is you. Even with cheap earbuds, hearing where planes are coming from has never been a problem.

@Aegis270

Such low altititude popup attacks also prevent RADAR lock,

it also prevent the plane from seeing you.

@Aegis270

meaning you have to freeaim the shot. Not hard if you have a lot of experience with SPAA, but less experienced players are likely to fumble with the RADAR instead.

Again, that’s a problem with noob SPAA mains.

@Aegis270

However, it is ever so slightly smaller than the sample size of 1204 that I was using for my assertion.

Thunderskill: The most reliable way to lose an argument

@Aegis270

.

But hey, since you like personal anecdotes so much, I decided to oblige you. Here’s the first game I played at 9.0 today (8.7 at a 0.3 BR uptier). I took the time to load up the server replay and count the CAS that spawned. There were 11.

congrats, you played over a dozen matches and cherry picked the one with tons of CAS.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@Morvran

I’d certainly like to see some buffs for CAS at that BR

… CAS needs buffs at no BRs…

[rainy2000]

No, he’s thinking more about these:

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

If you’re getting attacked by multiple vehicles at once, you’re gonna die. Why should 1 SPAA fightinig multiple planes be stacked in the SPAA’s favor?

Because unlike when you’re up against ground vehicles, there’s no positioning on the planet that can prevent you being attacked by multiple vehicles at once.

Besides, many ground vehicles are entirely able to survive fire from multiple enemies at once, so long as they position appropriately and don’t allow themselves to be flanked. How do SPAA pull that off against CAS, I wonder?

@Pangolin_Fan

The problem clearly is you. Even with cheap earbuds, hearing where planes are coming from has never been a problem.

As exemplified by your stirling results in the M16, M163 and Sgt York? You tout yourself as an SPAA expert, but in every SPAA incapable of tank hunting, where you cannot use that to explain away the low KD against air, you still have a low KD against air.

@Pangolin_Fan

it also prevent the plane from seeing you.

Generally, the plane has already seen the SPAA’s position, either by it baiting the SPAA to shoot at it early, or it shooting at something else. Or having a squadmate ping the location. I have a buddy who does these sorts of strikes in a SAAB-105 at 10.7 using this tactic. It’s very consistent, especially with rockets to further reduce the target’s reaction time.

@Pangolin_Fan

Thunderskill: The most reliable way to lose an argument

While Thunderskill is not an all inclusive dataset, and it does have biases, those biases are completely irrelevant it regards to your contention, that there aren’t enough CAS planes to shoot down at 9.0 for it to be useful.

No amount of bias in the Thunderskill population is going to magically spawn planes that don’t otherwise exist just for them to shoot down.

I’m going to keep asking the question you’re dodging until you answer it. How do Thunderskill players manage to generate planes to shoot down that you assert aren’t real?

@Pangolin_Fan

congrats, you played over a dozen matches and cherry picked the one with tons of CAS.

I literally played one match at 8.7, got an uptier to 9.0, played it, and stopped playing at that tier. The rest of my games that day were at 6.7 or 4.3.

But congrats on almost understanding my point that personal anecdotes are next to useless when it comes to establishing trends.

[IL_BRUTTO]

@Pangolin_Fan

even as low as 8.3 with ZSU-23s

I can easily destroy this anti-aircraft gun on piston planes. It does not pose a threat at a distance of more than 1 km. You will also write how Vulcan humiliates you.

[WalletWorrier]

IR SAMs are pretty busted as are early radar SPAA (heck the 163 is now 7.3 and fights props)
People always say the Strela is OP and should be 11.0 but no one ever seems to talk about the many 9.3s…
That being said SPAA players always seem to be blind and deaf. I dunno if theyre AFK or just scoped in permanently, but few ever seem to be paying attention and instead get clapped by aircraft they had a massive advantage over.

Oooh wait on a related note check out this topic :)

How to Not Die From CAS

Hello friends! Recently there has been a lot of complaints about CAS in ground battles, with discussion of a ground - only mode. Here are some simple tips to avoid dying from CAS in the meantime. Hopefully this helps improve your ground experience!

Introduction- the CAS perspective

What is CAS? CAS stands for Close Air Support. Essentially, using aircraft against small, tactical targets such as tanks, emplacements, vehicles, and infantry. In War Thunder, CAS refers to any use of aircraft to atta…

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Aegis270

Because unlike when you’re up against ground vehicles, there’s no positioning on the planet that can prevent you being attacked by multiple vehicles at once.

That’s simply skill issue.

@Aegis270

Besides, many ground vehicles are entirely able to survive fire from multiple enemies at once, so long as they position appropriately and don’t allow themselves to be flanked. How do SPAA pull that off against CAS, I wonder?

I’ve done it many times. just keep track of who’s about to attempt to strafe you.

@Aegis270

Generally, the plane has already seen the SPAA’s position, either by it baiting the SPAA to shoot at it early, or it shooting at something else.

Then don’t shoot at targets outside your range.

@Aegis270

I have a buddy who does these sorts of strikes in a SAAB-105 at 10.7 using this tactic. It’s very consistent, especially with rockets to further reduce the target’s reaction time.

Most people don’t have squadmates, and pinging targets with a competent squadmate is powerful regardless of if you’re in a plane or tank.

@Aegis270

While Thunderskill is not an all inclusive dataset, and it does have biases, those biases are completely irrelevant it regards to your contention, that there aren’t enough CAS planes to shoot down at 9.0 for it to be useful.

Again, K/D means nothing when you’re average less than 2 air kills a game

@IL_BRUTTO

I can easily destroy this anti-aircraft gun on piston planes

I’ve done it aswell. a single well place M61 from a PBJ-5H and even things like Gepard will go down.

@IL_BRUTTO

It does not pose a threat at a distance of more than 1 km.

Which is why SPAA mains who don’t suck, will wait for targets to enter their effective range.

@WalletWorrier

IR SAMs are pretty busted as are early radar

I’ve never really had a issue fighting early SAMs outside of snow maps. For most planes, just flip on “periodic counter meassures” when exposing yourself and you’ll be invuln.

[AblativeKitten]

had an issue fighting early sams

I’ve had issues with the harriers, but thats an issue with the planes not the missiles, although its really annoying that manpads will incositntly track through clouds

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

Again, K/D means nothing when you’re average less than 2 air kills a game

You keep making this claim, and I’m still not entirely sure what you mean by it.

The best I can guess is that you’re saying that because the KD is below 2, that means it doesn’t disprove your claim that there are two or less CAS aircraft in these games.

Which would only hold true if each game had a single M247 player (Who doesn’t use backups), with no other allied SPAAs or aircraft who get any air kills in that game, and no CAS spawns on the M247’s team to be killed by enemy SPAA or aircraft.

It seems entirely reasonable to assume that if a single SPAA player on a team manages 1.34 KD, then the average number of CAS vehicles is a good deal higher than 2.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@AblativeKitten

I’ve had issues with the harriers, but thats an issue with the planes not the missiles, although its really annoying that manpads will incositntly track through clouds

I typically just hug the ground to avoid SPAA and request that teammates mark som1 to die so that the few moments I pop out of cover, I’ll already have an idea on where an enemy is. It’s not super common for teammates to actually mark som1 tho.

@Aegis270

You keep making this claim, and I’m still not entirely sure what you mean by it.

It means that having 500/1 KD by killing 1 guy then hiding the rest of the game doesn’t mean that your vehicle is good.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@Pangolin_Fan

It means that having 500/1 KD by killing 1 guy then hiding the rest of the game doesn’t mean that your vehicle is good.

It is always people who don’t have good K/D to say such things. I wonder why You can’t do that even on one vehicle.

[MotorolaCRO]

@WalletWorrier

IR SAMs are pretty busted as are early radar SPAA (heck the 163 is now 7.3 and fights props)

You say IR slingers and early radar SPAAs are pretty busted but failed to get above 1 K/D in all of them. That’s quite interesting to say the least.

@WalletWorrier

People always say the Strela is OP and should be 11.0 but no one ever seems to talk about the many 9.3s…

Strela is considered OP by many purely because it’s under USSR tree.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@MotorolaCRO

Strela is considered OP by many purely because it’s under USSR tree.

Strela is known to be OP because you can’t flare or chaff it, there’s no warning when ones fired, and the few things that are supposed to be hard counters (terrain, clouds, the sun) don’t do anything bc Gajin refuses to nerf broken Russian vehicles.

[scorpiodude64]

if only all AAs were the same…

[Normandy_Corsair]

@WalletWorrier

IR SAMs are pretty busted

no…?

@WalletWorrier

as are early radar SPAA

no…?

[WalletWorrier]

the exact same are all true for Stingers…