Something needs to be done about 8.3 - 9.0 SPAA [Poll]

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Cyvell シ

You drop the bomb outside the engagement zone and then dodge as you pull up, its not too complicated.

You wanna know what also isn’t complicated? Moving 10ft when you see som1 drop a bomb.

@Cyvell シ

Also ill throw you a little bone to chew, what exactly are you to do against AGMs or bullpups…

The exact same thing, just move. Make yourself perpendicular to the Nord or Bullpup, drive forward, enemy adjusts his missile to follow, drive backwards, and boom missile misses. The only time I see other people die to MCLOS missiles is when they just stand still. I’d also like to note I do that in the XM246 which is the most sluggish Gepard by far.

Actually, countering Nords and Bullpups is even easier cause the CAS needs to either fly in a predictable straight line, or pull away and miss.

@Cyvell シ

Im sorry but it is viable on like 2/3 of the map pool, and again like i said earlier which you conviniently forgot is that you can also climb to 5k or 6k and dive bomb without the gepard being able to do much.

The Gepard can just shoot you or, yk, move.

@Cyvell シ

A lead indicator that turns wrong the minute the plane does a slight change in its heading. Its not rocket science.

Then just don’t shoot at a manuevering target. I shouldn’t need to explain this to you. Wait until he’s in firing or stop firing if he’s dodging.

@Cyvell シ

ah yes… not even close he says, and shows him having 26 deaths to 16 air kills. (no im not going to count your ground kills, they’re irrelevant to the current discussion). Which with some basic math (16/26) is suprise, suprise, bellow 1.

“Your K/D is bad cause I intentionally didnt count 80% of your kills”

That tracks. I guess my VK3002 is now a bad tank cause it has more deaths than air kills.

@Cyvell シ

Decompression will only happen if the max BR is raised.

Wow, it’s almost as if I literally stayed in my first mention of decompression that it requires moving vehicles up, not down.

[Get_HeshED]

@QTip_44

It is NOT incorrect. It’s just silly to expect every vehicle to be able to 1 vs 1 every enemy.

Yet, that’s exactly how it works and guess what - people like that.

@QTip_44

Just like not every tank can be played well on every map.

Not every vehicle can be played as well on every map, but on every map any vehicle can be played decently to a certain extent. Matchups like “ugh it’s [insert map name] i can basically quit to hangar” are nearly non existant.

@QTip_44

Jumbo works better on maps with lots of cover like hills, gullies and cities. Won’t do well on maps like Sands of Sinai. Play to it’s strengths.

That’s cool and all, but it’s not always up to you. If the situation you get thrown in isn’t favourable, you need to make do with what you have. And if you take away all tools for a player to deal with a bad situation, the whole game gets reduced down to luck.

@QTip_44

M26 and Tiger 2 H are same BR. FRONTALLY the m26 vs a Tiger 2 H would be in a similar position to the Jumbo vs IS1. So the m26 would try to flank, or track it or barrel it.

And guess what, M26 is considered one of the worst vehicles at entire 6.7 BR and players beg for it to be reduced down to 6.3. Jumbo at least can track and barell the enemy, Pershing can’t even do that because of how long it’s reload is.

With maxed crew it takes whole 17 seconds to fix a barell, by the time you arrive to flank the enemy and have another shell loaded a good chance is you won’t make it in time and be the one to die instead, even if you did everything correctly. And no, “not everyone has a max crew” is not an argument, since you physically can’t know the crew level of your enemy so you must assume it is maxed.

Also this analogy is quite terrible, as in Jumbo vs IS-1 it’s at least both tanks struggling to pen each other, while in M26 vs Tiger 2h, one party can just lolpen another anywhere, while the other has to snipe the cupola.

Thankfully, this game is actually not designed do terribly, so the poor M26 can actually shoot the cupola of Tiger 2h and kill it’s entire turret crew which gives it a fighting chance and makes the encounter somewhat fair. It’s not a shot easy enough to make Tiger 2h irrelevant, but likely enough to be reliable if aimed properly.

@QTip_44

You want a super-simple game, go play checkers.

Except that’s exactly what you propose? What you intend to do will essentially make the game all about what enemy you meet rather than what you actually do, since many tanks will have a fair share of vehicles which would essentially be hard counters to them.

[Cyvell_シ]

@Pangolin_Fan

You wanna know what also isn’t complicated? Moving 10ft when you see som1 drop a bomb.

Cyvell シ:

You know whats easy? Pressing space bar and moving your plane out of the SPAAs crosshair

@Pangolin_Fan

The exact same thing, just move. Make yourself perpendicular to the Nord or Bullpup, drive forward, enemy adjusts his missile to follow, drive backwards, and boom missile misses. The only time I see other people die to MCLOS missiles is when they just stand still. I’d also like to note I do that in the XM246 which is the most sluggish Gepard by far.

Actually, countering Nords and Bullpups is even easier cause the CAS needs to either fly in a predictable straight line, or pull away and miss.

Just use bullpups / Nords as improvised rockets or faster bombs, launch, adjust heading slightly and pull away. Yea it might not kill them, but its not that hard to swap between flying your plane and adjusting the missles heading slightly.

@Pangolin_Fan

The Gepard can just shoot you or, yk, move.

Bold of you to assume the Gepard knows there is a plane if its behind a hill, but whatever, you can also just, yk do a barrel roll.

@Pangolin_Fan

Then just don’t shoot at a manuevering target. I shouldn’t need to explain this to you. Wait until he’s in firing or stop firing if he’s dodging.

This just proves you dont know how lead indicators work. Target goes straight, you fire, target goes up, what you just fired at was a theoretical target that kept moving forward. Lead indicators don’t adjust themselved -1 second before the plane moves, they adjust about 0.1 or more seconds after the target moves. This is also combined with the fact that the plane can very much see the tracers fired at it, adn considering the fact that said bullets (if youre about 3km away from the firing gepard) will take about 2 seconds to reach your theoretical future position. Just pull some AOA and bullets glide past you.

@Pangolin_Fan

“Your K/D is bad cause I intentionally didnt count 80% of your kills”

That tracks. I guess my VK3002 is now a bad tank cause it has more deaths than air kills.

Your being disingenuous here. We are talkign about the performance of an SPAA agaisnt air targets, not ground, your score agaisnt ground is literally completely, and laughably irrelevant in this instance.

@Pangolin_Fan

Wow, it’s almost as if I literally stayed in my first mention of decompression that it requires moving vehicles up, not down.

Its almost as if i told you moving vehicles further and further agaisnt a wall is going to compress them.

What my entire overarching point in this discussion has been that the balance between CAS and the avarage SPAA at this BR is fairly balance. WE have gone back and forth like this for hours now, there is no end. There are pros and cons to both units, but all in all there are things they can do to counteract eachother. No SPAA is not OP at 8.3, Its a skill issue im sorry, and again, no your ground kills in it are irrelevant

[rainy2000]

For <40mm APHE, hell yeah.
Any higher, and it reduces the ability for those tanks to perform (whether it was reasonable or not).

[BlokPlaysGames]

Could just increase the rewards for planes. Maybe then SPAA would actually shoot planes!

[AlvisWisla]

I’ve never exploited game issues to get frags in my Jumbo:

Funny that I have a 2:1 KDR in the 5.7 Jumbo… which is my average among heavy tanks after getting good at the game. Never having shot the cupola of a Tiger 1, let alone an IS tank.
It’s funny how locked in time the American M4A3E2 is when I played it last in like 2019 or 2018.

There are allegedly players using the exploit, so why isn’t Jumbo 6.0? If it’s balanced at 5.7 without using it, why isn’t it not 6.0 if everyone else is allegedly using it?

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Cyvell シ

You know whats easy? Pressing space bar and moving your plane out of the SPAAs crosshair

Cool then. We agree that playing SPAA and playing CAS is both very easy, except CAS has penalties for missing.

@Cyvell シ

Your being disingenuous here. We are talkign about the performance of an SPAA agaisnt air targets

Wanna know what’s,not only disengenous but actively malicious? Comparing air kills to tank deaths and saying a vehicle is bad because of that.

@Cyvell シ

CAS and the avarage SPAA at this BR is fairly balance

No it simply isn’t. Jets that barely go above 500mph fighting Gepards is not balanced.

The only way you can think that’s balanced is if you’re just ridiculously bad at playing SPAA.

@Cyvell シ

No SPAA is not OP at 8.3, Its a skill issue im sorry, and again, no your kills in it are irrelevant

😂 The Gepards arent OP cause getting kills (in a PvP game) is irrelevant.

[QTip_44]

Please stop with the hyperbole.

It is not nearly as impossible to flank enemies as you suggest it might be.

The other day I was playing my Jumbo in an arcade battle and ended up on the Tunisia map. Only 1 cap - B, in the middle on the river at the oasis camp. Enemies capped first and while most of my team traded shots while camping I took my jumbo to the east toward the river. I followed the river gulley until it wound around toward the Cap and found 4 enemies (3 heavies and 1 medium) camping there. As their attention was focused on my team I killed them one by one with flank shots. No idea why they ignored me, but it was to their detriment.

If I, as an average player, in arcade (where fog-of-war is not nearly as effective as it is in realistic) can flank and kill enemies, anyone can do it in realistic.

Why do you think the m18 is only 5.3 in arcade but 6.0 in realistic. BECAUSE IT CAN FLANK and get kills easily that way.

[QTip_44]

@Cyvell シ

killing air targets gives like half the rewards killing tanks does

This is absolutely ridiculous. Fewer planes to earn a score on and harder to do with gun-armed spaas…

Killing a plane should be worth 2x killing a ground vehicle.

[Cyvell_シ]

@Pangolin_Fan

Cool then. We agree that playing SPAA and playing CAS is both very easy, except CAS has penalties for missing.

The SPAA can also quite likely die if missing and or playing its cards wrong such as placement. And no CAS wont die unless its stupid or pancakes, it misses and moves on.

@Pangolin_Fan

Wanna know what’s,not only disengenous but actively malicious? Comparing air kills to tank deaths and saying a vehicle is bad because of that.

No, you’re trying to rope your way into having a higher KD. We are talking about CAS vs PLANES. What you’re essentially saying is because you killed 20 players, died 40 times, but killed 60 AI bots your KD is higher than 1. If you wanna argue that the gepard should be higher BR due to its performance against ground I’d quite gladly hand you that, it is quite stupid against ground, but agianst its intended role (SPAA) its just fine or maybe almost good. Find a different way to make it less effective against ground than move it up.

@Pangolin_Fan

No it simply isn’t. Jets that barely go above 500mph fighting Gepards is not balanced.

The only way you can think that’s balanced is if you’re just ridiculously bad at playing SPAA.

800kmh my guy is not horrible? have you seen a 800kmh thing fly right by you? Speed isnt everything. or should theT95 be 3.0 because speed is everything apparently? Just because youre not supersonic doesnt mean you cant do anything agaisnt an SPAA that cant hit you beyond 2.5km unless you’re stupid.

@Pangolin_Fan

😂 The Gepards arent OP cause getting kills (in a PvP game) is irrelevant.

The gepards are NOT OP against AIR, ground is a different discussion altogether, but moving it up acomplishes nothing.

Its your call if you wish to prove my point further about the relation between SPAA and CAS being fairly balanced

[Cyvell_シ]

Yeah its an issue rarely discussed, the combination of fewer planes than ground targets and the lower rewards make for a really dismal experience and ioncentive, thats why few SPAA actually play as anti air units.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Cyvell シ

No, you’re trying to rope your way into having a higher KD. We are talking about CAS vs PLANES.

No, you’re lying knowing full well what you’re saying is a complete load.

Realistically, I’ve died only once or twice to planes in my XM246, every other death is to tanks. That thing is tanky af, and has survived multiple successive strafing runs as well as direct hits from MCLOS missiles.

If we’re counting only air kills, then we need to count only air deaths, which in that case my XM246 would have a K/D if 8.0.

[Cyvell_シ]

@Pangolin_Fan

No, you’re lying knowing full well what you’re saying is a complete load.

If thats what you chose to believe so be it, as i see it you have no right to rope your ground kills into the equation due to its irrelevancy.

@Pangolin_Fan

Realistically, I’ve died only once or twice to planes in my XM246, every other death is to tanks. That thing is tanky af, and has survived multiple successive strafing runs as well as direct hits from MCLOS missiles.

If we’re counting only air kills, then we need to count only air deaths, which in that case my XM246 would have a K/D if 8.0.

There is no way for us to know this, and quite frankly i dont find myself believing your claims, I’m sorry, CAS at 8.3 bracket is not bad, and honestly still has a slight advantage over SPAA naturally due to the fact that it can move in 3 Dimentions. If you have played it yourself you should know that the Orleikon 35 cannot hit beyond 2.5 clicks due to its artificail horrible accuracy, which i still havent seen you try to counteract me on. CAS can objectively engage from 5km or sometimes more and still have atleast a 50% chance of killing what its targeting.

[Cyvell_シ]

Would be the best solution yes, the problem is that there isnt enough incentive to fight air right now, the rewards are less and engagements even rarer. Its just a bad combination. Give SPAA a reason to want to fight the air and it quite naturally will. Dont get me wrong there will still be issues with teh gepard against ground for the ones who still use it as such, but i don’t have a great solution to that right now.

I just got side tracked trying to convince someone that moving gepard to 9.7 would be like having a Tiger 1 facing an T72 or something of the sort. the CAS it would face would be insurmountably better than the Gepard

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Cyvell シ

There is no way for us to know this

Except we do know this. The only times I’ve died to CAS in my XM246 was

1. When I first got it and tried using the radar screen thing to shoot down an Su-25, only for it to miss nearly an entire clip before I got bombed.

2. I was spawncamping on Vietnam and died to a 50mm Me 262 (lets be honest, if you’re spawncamping then you’re just begging to be bombed).

@Cyvell シ

If thats what you chose to believe so be it, as i see it you have no right to rope your ground kills into the equation due to its irrelevancy.

As I see it, you know you’re wrong but still insist on counting ground deaths, but only air kills.

@Cyvell シ

CAS can objectively engage from 5km or sometimes more and still have atleast a 50% chance of killing what its targeting.

Only if the Gepard is braindead.

@Cyvell シ

I’m sorry, CAS at 8.3 bracket is not bad

You’re right, it’s not the planes that are bad (except for the B-57 with its bugged bombsight) it’s the SPAA that are blatantly OP.

@Cyvell シ

the rewards are less and engagements even rarer

I wonder why. It’s definitely not being 8.3 CAS is blatantly OP and drives away anyone who wants to spawn any sort of aircraft.

[Cyvell_シ]

@Pangolin_Fan

Except we do know this. The only times I’ve died to CAS in my XM246 was

1. When I first got it and tried using the radar screen thing to shoot down an Su-25, only for it to miss nearly an entire clip before I got bombed.
2. I was spawncamping on Vietnam and died to a 50mm Me 262 (lets be honest, if you’re spawncamping then you’re just begging to be bombed).

No, i don’t know that for sure, im sorry i simply cant believe your claim.

@Pangolin_Fan

As I see it, you know you’re wrong but still insist on counting ground deaths, but only air kills.

Againt, ground kills dont matter, its not my fault if you cant stay on topic.

@Pangolin_Fan

Only if the Gepard is braindead.

Or if its not aware your coming which we have been through. Other stuff happens in GRB than just a SPAA and plane

@Pangolin_Fan

You’re right, it’s not the planes that are bad (except for the B-57 with its bugged bombsight) it’s the SPAA that are blatantly OP.

Mate if you geniunely believe something that can hardly kill a heli 3km away while the heli can CAS with impunity from 3.75km that one is honestly on you. Or an A4 launching MAVs or Bullpups from 5-6 km away while again gepard cantr effectively hit it from further than 2.5km that one is on you.

@Pangolin_Fan

I wonder why. It’s definitely not being 8.3 CAS is blatantly OP and drives away anyone who wants to spawn any sort of aircraft.

Its not that good mate, its just finally balanced for once compared to any BR bellow it where CAS can still comfertably engage from 3-4km while SPAA doesnt have the slightest chance of hitting anything beyond 1.5km

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Cyvell シ

No, i don’t know that for sure, im sorry i simply cant believe your claim.

No, you just don’t want to believe it cause it completely destroys any argument you had.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@AlvisWisla

Funny that I have a 2:1 KDR in the 5.7 Jumbo…

Less than 100 games is not really representative especially as You have said that You played it 6 years ago.

@AlvisWisla

There are allegedly players using the exploit, so why isn’t Jumbo 6.0?

I’m guessing You are trolling

[Get_HeshED]

@QTip_44

Please stop with the hyperbole.

It is not nearly as impossible to flank enemies as you suggest it might be.

It’s not about being completely impossible, it’s about it not being possible in a good chunk of scenarios you will find yourself in. And in that case - in your version of the game you might as well J out.

@QTip_44

The other day I was playing my Jumbo in an arcade battle and ended up on the Tunisia map. Only 1 cap - B, in the middle on the river at the oasis camp. Enemies capped first and while most of my team traded shots while camping I took my jumbo to the east toward the river. I followed the river gulley until it wound around toward the Cap and found 4 enemies (3 heavies and 1 medium) camping there. As their attention was focused on my team I killed them one by one with flank shots. No idea why they ignored me, but it was to their detriment.

@QTip_44

If I, as an average player, in arcade (where fog-of-war is not nearly as effective as it is in realistic) can flank and kill enemies, anyone can do it in realistic.

Your subjective experiences are very interesting albeit completely irrelevant to this discussion.

@QTip_44

Why do you think the m18 is only 5.3 in arcade but 6.0 in realistic. BECAUSE IT CAN FLANK and get kills easily that way.

Jumbo is not an M18. Flanking around the whole map in a light tank that can effectively engage targets at long distances is not the same as flanking around enemies at close range within city environment. The first one somewhat works at some maps, the other is only possible either against enemies that are alone or enemies whose backup doesn’t use their ears, both considering you have already disabled the target.

[Cyvell_シ]

@Pangolin_Fan

No, you just don’t want to believe it cause it completely destroys any argument you had.

No? not really? There is still plenty to go off…