Having 5 crews instead of 3 is not a big deal. Also in Naval AB you can just use a random fighter or bomber if you don’t have yours. The system is there and it works pretty well. One thing I would do to it is to show exactly what fighter and bomber you will have if you pick it, and make them from your nation for coherency and for eventual learning how to play specific plane.
Anyway, getting back to issue of air mission - bomber spawning from either side is not really a problem - the problem is the distance to combat zone and placement of fighters is making it pure RNG because the game wants to deal with this air mission quickly, and making it fair between teams requires time.
The only way to make it fair IMO is to make both sides fight with equal amount of fighters, and then the winning side enters with a bomber that has to defend against SPAAs without fighters attacking those SPAAs, but again - it requires time and if you’re leaving your tanks on the ground, it’s pretty bad idea for the air mission to take more time.
What you propose will not improve the gameplay at all. CAS should be reduced to a minimum. Their rockets and bombs in the spawn area should have absolutely no effect on enemy vehicles. They should also have a reduced number of them per game, such an F-4E completely destroys the gameplay in modes that are ironically called Ground. Additionally, there may be several such players, which makes the game completely pointless. Planes should have a much larger entry point (minimum 1000 spawn points/1500 next, no more than 2 planes per player allowed). Maybe then it would make some sense. Your suggestions are like those from some farmer’s circle meeting on how to make better cheese and they are debating about the seasoning instead of replacing bad milk with new one. This mode is called Ground Battles, so let’s respect its name or stop fooling ourselves into thinking that the game is normal. It would also be a good idea to have (always) 2x AA respawn options.
Well, that’s your opinion, but what are the arguments to support this?
Keep in mind that I stated at the beginning of the thread that this assumes gaijin doesn’t want to get rid of planes, wants to keep combined arms factor. Reducing effectiveness of planes in ground battles and making them semi-useless because of that, so players stop using them, is most likely not acceptable for gaijin.
The spawn protection should work on aircraft ordnance - yes, but not sitting constantly with SPAA in spawn area and being indestructible - that’s a NO. There will be maps where spawn area is also a place where you can snipe from, and as such CAS is there also to counter such campers.
I think I’ve forgot about it here, but the balance (data/numbers) is a separate thing from mechanics (behaviors/implementation), and I think the balance in spawn system from Naval AB can be achieved by a negative BR offset for planes. So for example if BR offset would be -1.0, for you to take F4E that is BR 11.0 now in a battle, your tank lineup BR would have to be 12.0 BR which doesn’t exist. It also would mean that you have to have a 2.0 BR in your lineup to be able to pull out 1.0 BR planes. Not saying that this exact number is perfect, maybe -0.7BR would make more sense or -1.3BR, and maybe it shouldn’t disallow planes on lower BR this way, but that’s a balance data to be tweaked.
If only one side can pull out many planes and the other can’t then maybe it means it was already lost on the ground? Or maybe if someone pulls out a plane, then there should be people that will take out SPAA? Keep in mind the negative BR offset assumption. Or your team should also take out planes to counter as fast as possible - it happens in naval, but the problem in naval is that the combination of heavy vessels and coastal vessels in one game mode makes it so that depending on player match-up, what will be the leftover vessels on the ground.
Well, that’s also balance data, I’m not arguing with that. Also just to make sure we’re on the same page - we’re talking here about arcade mode.
What is your argument for this? It’s just your opinion lol. Yours are like “less of CAS winning, more of me winning” which is non-productive in a situation where developers don’t want less/minimal effectiveness CAS.
I tried to suggest some ideas about being able to re-spawn for free if you get killed by CAS and it won’t be approved to suggestion section by mods because they put it under specific vehicles having special rules (and thus talking about vehicle data without historical proof?), which is not allowed. Anyway what IMO could make sense is that to have the point spawn system as in RB and then giving a player that gets killed by CAS enough points to spawn light vehicle/SPAA to keep being in the battle in some way.
Side note: Not all planes lost are deliberate crashes, BUT i do admit those are far too many…
I dont agree with planes being a spawn. I like it in naval, but i believe it has a too big potential to wreck Ground Battles by making planes too strong (as in RB) and would bring players that dont really want to play tanks. I know we had this discussion before and wont start again, just making the point.
I prefer the game to be harsher when a player loses the plane. A few suggestions would be a larger cooldown before getting another plane, a queue system where players that lose the plane go to the end of the line. System should be even harsher if plane crashes undamaged.
Less overall planes would also be a thing to consider (i liked the change that removed escorts when bomber is unopposed).
This is arcade…most players (including me) like it with the sights and reduced “complexity”…i admit i have a hard time finding and following targets in the allotted time without markers.
I am ok with adding the fuses…not sure if they removed them, but they do feel shorter.
I think in arcade we should keep the markers for the bombers, but more limited ones…no ID and only “visible” targets.
The game actually allows to “mark” targets that have no markers beforehand…so perhaps this was a good compromise. Player would have to locate and mark…but then the mark would stay on target.
The removal of markers for fighters increased open tops survivability a lot…
Bring your own planes in your lineup or get a random plane if you don’t have one for using for a limited time(so that Ground Battles don’t turn into Air Battles), 2-3min, enough to be able to use the planes either to attack enemy team tanks or to defend your own team from CAS.
If you survive your Air run, you keep your remaining respawns, if you die on your plane you lose 1 respawn, this will end with the “free” kamikaze behaviour we have now.
Limit payloads or make it more expensive to spawn a plane with heavier ones, this way you would have to do really good in your tank before you could spawn a plane with a good payload, rewarding skill and not luck as we have currently.
Bring back all markers for those using CAS including fighters(not even Ground RB removed all markers to CAS), but remove tank type from markers that fighters see in order to limit the targetting of “soft” tanks by them. Then remove tank type from scoreboard while on the air for CAS. This would also help a bit with revenge killing.
Also why even announce who is gonna use CAS, this gives an advantage to the enemy team, they could just wait that you spawn a plane and go attack your tank cause no one’s there to control it.
The cooldown makes sense in consecutive strikes, but doesn’t solve the problem of first bombing run deciding the outcome of the battle. If I have a first bombing run without interceptors on my back, And I have to destroy specific targets for my daily task or season challenge, I’ll still do a stupid bombing run with a heavy bomber because it’s now or never. If I’m picking out my own plane that lasts longer, I will most likely not take a heavy bomber that takes a lot more time to fly from the spawn and fighters can spawn meanwhile to take me down. Also I will attempt to drop bombs in a way that I can survive and do another run, and in naval it often means that I’m damaged bit by bit with each attempted (at best) and steadily it’s harder to do something, so in general it makes this more skillful over getting a new plane each run.
Also the cooldown doesn’t make much difference if you have a squad of good players that will be taking bombers alternately, and also does the cooldown disallow you from countering enemy bombing runs? From protecting your own team’s bomber? This is a good question that the answer will get complicated if there’s just a few good players on the ground that keep scoring and if they get a cooldown, they are also denying their team the counter to the bombing runs.
If we are going to allow players using their own planes and dropping bombs over and over again, either by reload in air, or reloading in specific area near the airfield/at specific altitude etc, it should be more skillful and at this point if you are taking out your own plane, you should be able to learn how bomb drops works on them and learn aiming. It’s a bit different with random planes from air mission because you’re always getting something different. Also this is something that makes it so the rockets might be the preferred ordnance over bombs, and rockets are not that precise (talking mostly pre-guided-missile era).
About the fuses - they aren’t removed from ground AB - I’m talking in context of bringing naval AB spawn system to ground AB, and just ensuring that people don’t start arguing about me wanting to have instant fuse.
That makes some sense, but then every target is a good one, and we’re back to the issue of picking easier targets than the ones that are bringing more value to the team. Not sure if scouting is perfect option for that, but still anything visible on the ground widens the range of targets to pick from.
But I like the idea that your team needs to see a target - it could be explained as the fact that you are only rewarded points if ground units confirm the kill.
This gets complicated and with limited time, there’s always a problem of this becoming either about allowing stupid kamikaze tactics, even if you are penalized, but you want to score kills on specific targets, or it again becomes a problem of not having enough time to escape fighters and actually being able to do anything, so we’re at square one of problems with air mission. Having unlimited play time on a vehicle that you’re generally able to use only once in a battle makes the penalty for dying a big one.
Secondly it’s tricky to determine whether the guy died because of kamikaze run or because someone shot him down, and add to that having your tank killed on the ground and your team is potentially losing the best player on the ground that could’ve had some more effective play time there.
Yeah, this makes sense, on top of a negative BR offset that I talked about earlier. It makes sense that a guy that collects a ton of points to be able to make a bombing run with heavy bomber after he’s already dominated the game, but not a guy that just scored first three kills quickly. Also hoarding the points should have an effect of diminishing returns so the more points for plane you have, the less you get for each kill.
Yes - for fighters having markers on the ground units, but NO - for every plane having its own detection of the ground units. It should only see markers of vehicles visible to ground units. Good idea for not giving them tank types on those markers - then it would make sense with scouting to show the markers for scouted vehicles.
Well, with naval AB spawn system that is no longer a problem, but for some reason in RB you don’t have list of enemy vehicle types. Maybe it could work in favor of the team that if someone spawns in the plane, the team can instantly spawn SPAA - this could be a good counter in AB.
Unless you have a high SP cost for planes if you don’t make them limited in time(or in number) you would end with a lot of planes in the sky, that’s why I mentioned a Ground Battle turn into an Air Battle, also planes in Arcade can reload so someone that gets a few early kills can simply j-out of the tank and use a plane for the rest of the match unless someone kills it. On the other hand, if you limit planes too much, SPAAs won’t have enough targets to kill to make it worth to use them. There should be a limit of planes in the match in order to keep balance and targets to SPAAs. Not an easy task there.
A crash is a crash, if someone got awarded the kill of the plane it’s considered a kill even if that plane died on a kamikaze attack. People do it cause they lose nothing and it’s much more efficient to kill targets at the last second. When a kamikaze attack kills the enemy, the one that does it shouldn’t be allowed to go back to the tank, he already got a kill so if there is no cost people will keep doing it. I prefer to keep my tank than to get a single kill.
At least, friendly markers should be visible to friendly planes, not even Ground RB removes these to friendly fighters, it’s crazy that Arcade does it. But the most important thing for me is the removal of the tank type, this is the biggest advantage that those going after “soft”(or slow) targets have. This was a much better solution for the CAS problem we had than what they did on only removing markers for all fighters.
The numerical balance here can be tweaked, the air mission with a limited time, whatever that is, is always going to have a problem of the system needing to decide who has the upper hand in such limited time situation. When players spawn naturally, it’s similar to the ground - you have time to figure out your approach against the players that are already in the combat zone.
That’s a separate problem of balance whether allow it, and how to allow it. Again, it was made in a way that it’s too easy, as opposite of players having to land on the airfield, and that’s a bad thing in arcade in general. It could’ve been made in a dozen different ways, like for example you have to go back to a point in the sky at specific altitude like it was in world war, so you cannot indefinitely chase that bomber to the edge of the map, or they could simply make the autopilot land the plane for you, there could simply be an exit zone and so on and so on. But someone decide to go into the extreme and let players reload mid-air because they won’t be able to land the plane and will crash. And that was IMO a bad decision. But since we’re talking about combined arms on the ground, we have room to change this if the spawn point was about spawning your own plane as it is in naval AB and ground RB.
If you limit the planes too much, either by how often they can be used, or how useful they are, it’ll be against the principle of combined arms. What should happen is that planes are equal to tanks in the skill required to make a kill, so they should be balanced out through statistics and either BR offset or have separate BRs in ground AB based on their efficiency.
Well, here’s the problem - if you penalise any player that crashed, even when he got shot down, then people will stop using the planes, and again - that is not what gaijin wants if they want the combined arms, so such system is not going to be accepted IMO. If you don’t penalise players crashing into the ground just because someone scored the kill on them, the kamikaze problem remains. And people will do kamikaze runs for example because it’s easier to aim rockets from close range, and because cannons are more potent from point-blank range.
That makes sense, but I feel like it was done this way so the fighters in general have it significantly harder to take part in the fight, exactly because there are no other ways that the game is penalising pilots…
I’m not so sure about this is enough though. If you have a marker, often it’s really easy to quickly figure out what the vehicle is, especially if you have a big screen. It takes a bit more time for every separate vehicle to find it, and figure out if that’s the same one that you were looking at the moment before. So not having types of vehicles there is a good start, but not having markers for not-spotted vehicles is even better.
I agree, the system used in naval should be implemented across the board, AB & RB tanks would benefit from such a system. The respawn point system in RB is the main cause of all the anti-CAS feelings as far as I am concerned. And both ground modes could use a lot of work in the air vs ground situation(s). I do like the limited number of planes & sorties that AB has, that would seem to work better for RB as well. Just have to do something about the really poor spawning system in AB. But being able to use your own planes instead of something totally random and generally not very useful would help the plane part. The idea of having more “continuity” between the modes is very much to my liking and would seem solve a good deal of existing issues . . . just my opinion tho
That’s exactly my point. And on top of that - having your own plane you care more about it and don’t take out stupid heavy bombers risking to be taken down before you do anything specific.
I’m not quite sure that using the naval AB system for ground battles would be that good actually.
It would be great for US, Germany and Russia, good for GB, China and France , but I think Japan, Italy, Sweden and Israel would get the short end of the stick.
It might be a good option for researching helicopters though, but I don’t think that would make the ‘CAS op’ players happy.
Why though? Even if they are missing aircraft at specific BRs, there’s still option to have something given to you, and also if they would be missing out there, then it means there would be motivation to give them something there. Aren’t they missing out now in the RB for the same reason?
The thing is, in RB new players that are not skilled with aiming at aircraft aren’t a threat against aircraft. In AB everyone has lead indicator on the aircraft. And it already works in naval AB that people don’t want to loose the plane too easily, they try to survive longer. And also BR offset can be there, and also you won’t be taking out have bomber because it will mean getting killed easily and not having the plane till the end of the match. Right now people won’t see it, but it once it’s there, it’ll work and we’ll have less problems with it.
I don’t do RB, so I don’t really care how things are done there. Wings rip off in RB, for reload one has to land… horrible mechanics…
So you would be ok with some nations having to rely mostly on random planes with stock crew and 60s reload, while others can bring fully leveled planes in ace crew that will drop several tons of bombs every 30 seconds, with several good options at just about any BR?
Again, I don’t really care about RB… As far as naval AB is concerned, it works great for me, destroy 9 ground or naval targets with either bomber or attacker are among my favorite tasks, can sometimes be done in a single game…
Having your own permanent planes would be a bit like AB squadron battles, which had caps on the ground for tanks but were usually won in the air.
I don’t play RB too much, but that was just to point out that this kind of problem already exists in RB.
Yes, because if it would solve the main problem with the planes, while bringing ground AB players to grind out plane trees, it would be a motivation for gaijin to add more planes to those nations that are missing out.
About the bomb reload in the air though - I would prefer it not be there anymore in the game and you would have to get back to plane spawning point at specific altitude at least to get bombs and rockets, because it would prevent indefinite climbing. But that’s the balance and maybe just option to have players hunting down bombers without time limit would prevent such situations before it would happen.
The point about RB is that the problem is similar - SPAAs in both GF AB and RB are not a deterrent against planes. But in naval somehow you start caring about your plane. I don’t know about 9 naval targets killing - balance in naval is tricky because it’s easy to kill multiple small boats, but not that easy to kill big vessels. It’s a similar problem of planes having same BRs for both ground and air battles in RB now that they are solving by splitting BRs between the modes. In ground modes it won’t be such big discrepancy between different tanks as it is in naval, so it should be easier to balance it out.
Not exactly though - having to get some significant amount of points to spawn the aircraft makes it so that some of the better players on the ground would have to leave their best tanks or get killed nad lose them before jumping into the plane and on top of that getting a second plane would not be as easy as in squadron battles. On top of that - again - naval and squadron battles have/had instant bomb fuse and reload in the air, which significantly affect your effectiveness. Imagine how many time would you be able to drop bombs with heavy or even medium bomber if you had to return over the airfield at specific altitude to reload, and how effective you would be with forced fuse.
You need to separate thinking about the plane spawn systems from specific modes, from the balancing gameplay mechanics that are added on top of them. BR offset of planes against ground vehicles in your lineup, forced bomb fuse delay, bombing aim reticle in 3rd person view, no reload in the air, turret-top machineguns working like AA guns on ships with a toggle - all that should be to our disposal to balance things out, but first step is making dying in aircraft penalised properly.
Basically what you want is to nerf planes to RB level, just short of making them disappear altogether, while I just want to use them to the best of their capacity, and ideally use them to help with the tank grind. For plane RP I can play air or, to some extent, naval. I actually like the current system, what with everyone starting on the same level.
It’s already bad enough that they made the ground marker disappear for fighters, though I guess that helps open top vehicles. It was fun strafing them…
I didn’t say that I want to nerf things to RB level and that all those should be implemented, just that there are a lot of mechanics that can be used to balance planes against ground. Planes are still a lot easier to fly in AB, so even if all those nerfing mechanics where to be implemented, it’d still be better than in RB.
Yes, but again - if plane will be yours, the removal of marker for fighters will not make sense anymore as this is just artificial attempt to force players into covering the bomber. Separate this being now in the game from potential spawn system implementation, markers may or may not be implemented.
Air mission is flawed and is unfair to everyone involved. Because it can’t really be fair, it’s based on RNG, and since it has effect on the battle, because it has to, otherwise it’d be useless and unused, such RNG affects the outcome of the battle, for one team a good uninterrupted bombing run will decide the tide of battle, for another team in another match they’ll have consecutive bombing runs that are ineffective because of being intercepted all the time.
With your own plane and unlimited time it is at least clear that it’s your skill deciding how you try to go around enemies approaching you in the air, until we get to spawn camping problem, where taking away mid-air reload of ordnance would counter this issue and issue of climbing up on top of the combat zone.
Even if we discard the approach of being able to use our own plane, and having given a random one, an unlimited time that costs a lot is better than lots of short air missions with forced RNG deciding whether you’re effective or not.
I quite like the idea of using the Naval AB mechanic, it works well in Naval and CAS is not a problem in either coastal or bluewater because of it… that and the effectiveness of AA is better in Naval, in ground its a joke until you start getting up to SAMs.
SPAA needs massive improvement in the game between Ranks 1 to 5, since most are guns. It is bizarre to me that I can slap a bomber in the face with dual 40mm SPAA and they tank it like a Maus in a full down tier, yet when I play a bomber in Air AB, I get my planes wings and tail blown off by a ruddy 12.7mm.
In RB it’s a joke because most of the people can’t aim without lead indicator, so they don’t even try. In ground AB it’s because you can strafe without caring about anything. Also note that naval spawn system has a BR offset for the planes because vessels have a lot more guns. It could be the opposite offset for ground making it so that you’re allowed to take lower BR plane than your tank lineup BR.
Also I think that on top of that, having a toggle for turret top guns to fire at approaching aircraft automatically similarly to how it works with naval vessels would do miracles because then it’d be harder for the planes to approach, and in most cases you’re visible on the map and marked anyway, so you’d toggle it off when you want to sneak around.
The thing with not being able to destroy something - that’s another problem here that the game is rigged against you doing the tasks in timely manner, and it’s just that against planes you don’t have a repeatable scenario to be 100% you’re cheated by the game, so it’s even more rampant. It won’t change until we play with our own planes.
Ive been playing a while. Im into playing random vehicles
I like assisting teamates.
GAB. Plane suicide and an over abundance of planes screams that Gaijin is at a crossroads.
Maps are way to small. And the constant same spawn locations are eyeroll boring.
planes suicide killing takes away from the cat and mouse fun of ground combat.
in many matches there are simply too many planes.
way to many high yield bombers
planes spawning behind enemy lines is nonsense
enemy planes spawning behind friendly planes is also nonsense
CHANGES NEEDED:
Planes count as ingame deaths
add 1 or 2 more spawns inkeeping with plane deaths
get rid of high yield bombers GAB
fighter deaths count as .5 deaths
light tanks/armored cars/ SPAA count as .5 deaths
get rid of capture points and use a type of map control. Map area control of sorts
relax on the one shot kills. Allow some room for “luck”
make mord structures “destroyable”
bring in more weather obstacles / and night day scenarios
add an airport spawn point with actual fixed AA guns
Infantry and motorized/ mechanized infantry squads would be awesome, but wishful thinking.