Simulator BRs of all tomcat variants should be adjusted to be the same as realistic BRs

Any ARH missile carrier will always be at an advantage compared to SARH carriers in simulator battles. The signature weapon of the tomcats were always more potent in simulator battles compared to realistic battles (Even before multi pathing nerf). The limited situational awareness and limitations of first person game-play makes it harder to counter the phoenixes in the same way as ARB. The even more powerful Fakour-90 on F-14A IRIAF only amplifies this.

The tomcats get good weaponry, avionics, flight performance. They are the complete package. The competition of the tomcats do not share this advantage (except Mirage 2k but they are allies most often). The competition lacks behind on at-least one of these traits.

I request Gaijin to adjust the battle ratings of the tomcats to be the same as RB battle ratings.

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Spoiler

smbd tell him about Sim BR brackets

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I know about BR brackets lol. Tomcats are just superior in 12.7 brackets, with numerical advantage, they can just outright overwhelm the opposite team by forcing them to go defensive. This is very obvious in BVR friendly maps.

There is a reason why they are increased in battle rating in RB, they alone have the advantage of forcing enemies to go defensive while being on the offensive. That change needs to be added to sim as well.

BR brackets are bound to change in future. When 12.3 becomes top BR, F-14A will reign supreme. The only real competition for it that I could think of would the the F-4EJ Kai. Mirage 2k might have been a counter with certain team combination but it is going up to 12.7 now.

well
MiG-29/YaK-141 on 12.7 are superior, due of R-27ER

so many mistakes in words “There is a reason why they increased in battler rating in rb: Dumb farmers can evade less-dumber missile”

Probably MiG-23MLD would be also to do so, since it has superior RWR, STR, IR missiles

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Incorrect, those planes will just die if they engage in missile jousting against a tomcat. Multi pathing may be a workaround but it is just unreliable and not viable in certain maps. Their reliable option to survive is to go defensive. Tomcats also boast better flight performance compared to those planes.

Incorrect, previously, no other plane family below 12.7 had the luxury of making majority of the enemy team go defensive. Enemy team lose their positional advantage while trying to dodge the ARH missiles, Planes with worse / no RWR get picked off by the ARH missiles, the odds are stacked against the enemies all of a sudden.

Incorrect, since the nerf to both the flight model and the radar, Mig-23MLD is no match to the tomcat. R-24R isn’t even a real BVR missile, realistically it is best used under 10km.

You just seem to be simping for the tomcat because you main it.

I play multiple nations (including US and the tomcats) and I want the game to be balanced.

welp, R-27ER are faster than AIM-54 in most of cases in game. if used properly - would more than counter Tomcats, since they would need go defensive too. Even easier with Yak-141, which can almost notch and attack opponent.
As flight perfomance - MiG-29 would be better in some cases, in some not. At least since tomcat just goes spin-off after ~25 AOA
Radar of MiG-29 also would be better, due of MPFR modes. YaK-141 radar would be superior by gimbal limits and MPFR modes.
theyre performing nearly the same

still, almost all of planes on such BRs can see phoenix seeker, sometimes without “LAUNCH”, but with “LOCK”. must be enough for use their 5 braincells and evade phoenix.

MiG-23MLD has STR superior to even Rafale and Eurofighter, if use similar AB fuel time.
Tomcat outmatched quite easily

Comparsion


MiG-23MLD is orange, 51% fuel.
F-14A is blue, 63% fuel.

Well, same can be said for AIM-7F and other stuff, which can be evaded.

nope, all things i said - facts.

Incorrect, I can fire a phoenix and go cold, A mig-29 / Yak-141 would have to stick to the lock. Provided I maintain the distance to the target, I can be at minimal risk. While they are faster, doesn’t mean they will kill me.

Incorrect, it is also very prone to lose lock when notching. F-14B gets a ton of countermeasures that becomes beneficial in this case. Tomcat and Mig-29s radar have their tradeoffs. Tomcat can pick target faster but doesn’t get MPRF mode. Mig-29 gets MPRF mode but takes its time to pick up targets. Yak-141 has better radar but it is still prone to breaking lock when notching. It becomes very hard to re-acquire lock while still evading a ARH missile.

These Russian planes have limited radar missiles while the tomcat has 6 radar missiles. It is easy to force them to exhaust their radar missiles.

You should also note that many planes under those battle ratings get limited countermeasures and not so accurate RWR. The mirage F1 and JA37D with very limited RWR can’t reliably notch ARH missiles in 11.7 - 12.7 bracket. While the SPO-15 on several Russian planes provide better information compared to the previous planes it can’t help you achieve a perfect notch. In most cases you would be at a slight angle towards a target or away from the target. This helps the missile to maintain lock. I learnt my lesson with SPO-15 and notching when I spaded my J-11A.

It’s not going to get into that turn fight if it gets smacked with a radar missile in the first place.

Incorrect, the statement is about range. AIM-7F can be reliably used in 15-20km shots. A R-24R isn’t going to hit the target in same conditions. You haven’t even played a plane with R-24R based on your stats.

That’s all you are doing. You are typing out cherry picked stuff without explaining / understanding how they interact with the rest of the game.

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Funny how you don’t have experience with the tomcat’s opposition in SB (based on your profile) and you are still somehow praising that they are better than the tomcat.

Here’s the truth, You know that the tomcats are under tiered and you want them to stay under tiered.

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What keeps MiG-29/Yak-141 from going Cold, if tomcat goes cold too?

BOLs are useless against any IR missiles, in combination with F-14B engines.
so, 60 flares and 320-640 useless flares. better to be used as Chaffs. and yet, as i remember they pop 2 at the time.

Everything can be notched, everything became bad?

sort of trade-off

well, true, but at same time these 6 missiles are way worser in case of perfomance.

F-14A also does that.

you dont need to notch phoenix, when you can go cold.

AIM-120/R-77/MICA-EM/etc of toptier ARHs has different seekers from AIM-54.

MiG-23 has to use more sneaky gameplay.

then compare max statcard range? or what?

if target is dumb - maybe

Well, if you really want to go into stats - even you has worser K/D ratio in F-14A, than MiG-23MLD.

Same be can said easily to you. But would that be somewhat honest and important?

If they fire a missile and go cold, they lose that missile. Tomcat gets higher missile count.

I am convinced that you are just trolling at this point lol. While BOL flares are less potent than regular ones, you have the option to spam them to fool the seeker. so they are not “useless”. You also have the ability to make them pop more CMs at a time in a more frequent interval with periodic countermeasures feature.

idk what is even the point of this comment. mig radar can be notched, tomcat radar can be notched, phoenix radar can be notched. Tomcat is at advantage in such scenario with higher missile count and better flight performance when it ends up in a dog fight.

Incorrect, they are still potent when used under their optimal conditions. Not to mention the cracked Fakour-90s on F-14A IRIAF which sits at 12.3.

Yes, you can go cold with limited awareness on the tomcats position. Eventually you’d be forced to recommit and tomcat will be at advantage here.

Not gonna be sneaky when enemy radar can pick you up at very long ranges.

Incorrect, R-24R simply lacks the motor burn time to support such long ranges in realistic conditions. Play a plane with R-24R first lol. Not to mention the inferior radar on Mig-23 which can be chaffed easily. Stat card values are not viable to compare realistic game-play performance.

What can be said about me? lol. I am not the one arguing to keep an under tiered plane the same way it is. I play these planes too and I know that they are at a unfair battle rating. Game balance is important to me than having a single plane dominate BR brackets.

wouldnt work on level with normal-size CMs, even if spammed

at same time getting more chance for enemy’s missile to just straight up ignore them

in some cases tomcat better, in some MiG-29 is.
Tomcat is better in STR, while worser in peak ITR and AOA

AIM-54 are way worser
F-90 - maybe, idk, i do not have Iranian tomcat, but maybe, wouldnt argue since i just idk about it.

use terrain(Mountains and etc)/multipath

Better up to 10KM, on level with 15KM, worser by one-second on 20KM range.
all launches from 1200 KMH, 500M start values and target goes hot 1200kmh 100m
after 15km they basicly have near to 0 chances if target not going same direction(directly on missile), Target needs to hit missile.

CW still active, even if launch-aircraft radar would go onto chaffs. also R-24R has PD seeker

but at same time youre trying to defend them from going onto fair/almost fair BR. maybe then theres some sort of personal reasons?

depends on what youre talking about. F-14A(Not IRIAF, idk about it) and F-14B are tiered correctly, with bugfixes, new weapons they can go up. or in case of an massive de-compression

It seems like you are 100% convinced that these BOL CMs are useless lol, maybe you should turn off your AB and flare. I’ve had a different experience with them.

Firing more CMs mean enemy missile will ignore them? that’s a new one lol. Logic left the chat.

Provided you survive the first few turns, mig-29 is easy to beat.

Not under their ideal use conditions. Use them in medium to long ranges. Once they gain enough speed, they are good. Not at the level of R-27ER but still very lethal.

Not viable. Many maps don’t offer this advantage. Multi pathing is unreliable nowadays.

Are you using statshark to calculate this? lol. Folks at the datamine server themselves warned to not blindly trust that missile calculator. Test it in a real match.

R-24R has good chaff resistance, especially in short ranges but can be reliably evaded by chaffing when it is launched at longer ranges. Longer range missiles on the tomcat helps it to be at an advantage here but not even letting it to be in the range of R-24R. Even the limited RWR of F-14A can detect track and launch warnings from the Mig-23 radar. Wdym R-24R has PD seeker? lol.

I am only asking the SB battle ratings to be set on par with RB BR. I am not asking them to be set at 13.3 or 13.7. F-14A at 12.3 is just not it. It doesn’t have any real competition at 12.3. F-14B at 12.7 is stronger than the competition. What personal reason lol? I am just pointing out unfair BR placements.

Welp, maybe would give it a try, but still not sure

Flying with pereodic flares.

If MiG-29 wouldnt try to use it’s advantages - yep(havent really seen ppl who can, but thats ir)

Well, maybe as some sort of self-defence maybe, but not as attack, just due of their seeker(and AWG-9)

Then just dont play it?
And, i cannot remember any map, wheres would be nothing. Nor flat space nor mountains/terrain

Yes, statshark, but must be close enough. Mostly corresponds to personal experience with 7F. Must be same with R-24R

For that you need to find dumb players, or make a custom map(have no idea how to do that)

It has same seeker for short and long ranges.
Difference - CW illumination, theres always chance that target would go from sidelobe antennas or your radar would stop tracking chaff(ypu would need to re-lock the targer)

MiG-23MLD is more about some sort of close fights, F-14A for more distant.

Yep, seeker has an PD filters
Probably only missile without PD fitler on such BRs - Matra 530F

It got unfairly uptiered to 12.7(F-14A)/13.0(F-14B)
It is inferior even in RB, but stats(thanks for AFK MiG-23, F-4S, Mirage F1 and other premium base farm planes) were quite high.
It(F-14A) has no point to be 12.7, just due of it lacking all-aspect missiles, CM amount(especially with TF-30’s heat signature), bad sensors(RWR and radar)
F-14B at 13.0 also has same issues(except of low CM(60 only flares is somewhat acceptable), bad rwr) bad IR missiles, bad radar.
Also, current 13.0 would have edge in most of cases - F-4F Ice would have huuge BVR advantage, F-15A/J/MiG-29G/Mirage4000/JAS39 in WVR fights.

As you said before - F-4EJ kai would be able to compete.
Added later: also Mirage2000 would be able to, it still sits on same BR. Even in RB M2Ks4 stays 12.3

There is planes that can beat it in some aspects easily.

I did not mean flying with periodic flares but using the periodic flares as normal flare dispensing feature. Once you get used to it, it is very potent.

Dodging guns should be fairly easy if you fly defensively, R-60Ms can be easily flared, You should avoid R-27ERs by spamming chaff (to avoid radar lock first). It isn’t that hard to survive first few turns.

This is just a dumb statement lol. If you argue that a certain plane should be played a certain way, it should be viable in all maps. If it just can’t do that in all maps, it is just disadvantaged and not a potent competition like you claim it to be.

I’ve used all of these missiles in this conversation. My experience says otherwise. Your profile shows that you haven’t even played a plane with R-24R. Correct me if I am wrong.

I agree. R-24 has good chaff resistance due to its CW seeker but it can’t reliably ignore chaff for extended periods of time. I usually fire them within 5-8 km for a guaranteed hit even if my radar lock is chaffed (and leaving less time for enemy to react). But longer range means more time for the enemy to defend and the missile can still be evaded easily by notching of going cold.

That’s the thing, F-14A is superior in long distance but at the same time, it is no slouch at dog-fighting as well.

Everyone argues that F-14A has no all aspect IR missiles or F-14B doesn’t have IRCCM missiles while conveniently ignoring the fact that the ARH missiles are the sole reason for their BR placements. Would it make sense if I argue that I want Mirage F1 to be placed at 11.0 because it has SARH missiles with only pulse seekers? Look at the whole picture and see how it affects the meta. Low CM count is not something that only the tomcats suffer from (at similar BRs).

I personally don’t agree with lowering the battle rating of the F-4F ICE. F-15s should be at 13.3 too. Mirage 4000 and JAS39A are justified at 13.0, especially since the multi path nerf. In current meta, a IR missile dominant plane would suffer against a plane with good radar missiles, a SARH missile dominant plane would suffer against a plane with ARH missiles, A ARH missile dominant plane would suffer against another ARH carrier with better flight performance and defensive capabilities.

It can be a usable but the flight model still sucks. Depending on a single plane among several enemy nations to be considered a counter to tomcat just doesn’t sound right.

  • in some aspects, but the F-14B is just better if you look at the whole package.

You mean pseudo-working CM program?

All depends on opponent

Yes, but it mostly has quite a lot of starting parameters, to be sure in smth

Idk, probably theres no maps that cant be played, since almost all/just all maps have enough terrain/flat multipath zones

Was all of that experience just dumb straight flying players?

Theres some thing, which i wouldnt risk to post/talk about it here

Depends on case
If target still in CW zone, missile tracks - must hit

Would be hard tbh, since you can see SARH missile itself on RWR, only CW

Well, STR of MiG-23MLD is better, but a bit worser SEP.

Well
ARH missiles are overrated against players, at least in current state
And, to be at least some sort of efficient, they would need to stay on current BR, maybe except of F-14A IRIAF(but idk about it, but from stats looks like it is faster and pulls better)

Others mostly doesnt have such a massive heat signature

Multipath is still strong enough, almost always can evade missiles by it.
Prob would take IR meta plane over SARH(at least untill thats not smth really op like 27ER)

But has better radar, RWR, IR missiles. Probably only thing it loses to tomcat - more limited loadouts(cant take 6 SARH+2 IR, only 4+4) and dogfight perfomance

Welp, as i added before - Mirage2ks stays same br
Aswell as considering that lower-BRed planes, sometimes they can be on level or better

50/50 with MiG-29/YaK-141 honestly
Overall it is on level

Just set your periodic CMs to pop more in shorter intervals, use periodic countermeasure key bind instead of countermeasure key bind to release CMs. You should be able to pop out more CMs with lesser key presses.

It depends on you as much as it depends on opponent. No one is a perfect armchair pilot.

All maps have some zones suitable for multi-pathing but you can’t reliably force your fights in there. Maybe the enemy doesn’t come to you, maybe you run into some random ground depression when trying to multi path. Multi path isn’t that reliable.

When I fly planes with sparrows I confidently take 15-20km shots. I stopped taking long range shots with my mig-23s nowadays.

All I can know is what I see on your profile. If you have something to add but don’t want to, I can only assume there’s no such thing.

They are still potent in my experience. If they are not as good as you claim them to be, tomcats wouldn’t have faced backlash and have a BR increase.

Mirage 2k goes up in BR to 12.7. Which is deserved and the F-14A should go up with it. Given that the M2K is often on the same side as tomcat, I wouldn’t even consider it to be a valid counter to them.

image

That’s where I disagree.

F-14B - Good radar, good missiles (8), lots of countermeasures, good flight performance, can force enemies to go defensive while being on the offensive. (5/5)

Mig-29 - Good radar (more of a side grade when parameters like refresh rate, notch resistance are considered, good (2) + meh missiles (4), low CMs, meh flight performance, cannot force enemies to go defensive while being on offensive. (2/5 against a tomcat)

Yak-141 - Good radar, Good but limited missiles, meh flight performance, low CMs, cannot force enemies to go defensive while being on offensive. (2.5/5 against a tomcat)

Well, also depends on situation, you wont get clear 1v1 in EC

I just wouldnt risk.

Depends on enemy
Had 0 troubles to deal with f-90/aim-54 using F-111F, Tornado IDS. By multipath

BR got increased due of statistics
Statistics were increased by dumb opponents, who cant multipath or go cold/notch

Not in SB.
And M2Ks4 stays the same

It doesnt get MPFR for it’s radar, which heavily reduces any active engagement capability. Only thing it may have over MiG-29’s radar - scan speed

Missiles… theyre not good, if consider R-27ER as just “good” too. More like theyre fine, only point - theres more of them. At same time not “meh” as you consider R-60

For flight pefomance - terrible AOA and one circle capabilities, but can sustain quite good. Also its slow

Overall - idk, i cant see any sense in thia conversation, since both, me and you are just standing on our points.

My statement still remains valid, It depends on you as much as it depends on opponent.

Chooses multi path friendly maps, multi paths, guess what, there are more maps.

As much as dumb opponents are the reason, most of those dumb opponents are also not equipped properly to dodge these missiles. I took out the F-14A in RB a while ago. I remember killing a SAAB J35XS in it. Stats gathered at such periods were used to increase the BR of tomcats. You think that’s purely a skill issue on the draken’s part?

Not everyone has the plane. Your statement becomes even dumber, Depending on a single plane among several nations that is locked behind a paywall doesn’t seem fair.

F-14 radar gets better scan speed, wider (up to 130 degrees) search zone and much longer range. Mig-29s radar and F-14’s radar just trade off on each other’s weakness.

F-14B is slow? that’s a new one lol.

True. You are just cherry picking certain facts about the planes and claiming everything is balanced IMO. Your lack of experience with the red side makes me even more believe that you are that guy who wants his under tiered stuff to stay under tiered. I don’t see any point in this conversation with you as well.

I am looking at the whole picture. Unlike you, I have experience with both sides of these BR brackets and I want the matches to be balanced.

The only way to make this work is if either gaijin creates a 13.3 bracket so that stuff like the base flanker/su27 dont face constantly superior opponents as the eurofighter, rafale… o
OR they could leave the ICE and F15A at 13.0 while also lowering the br of the Su27/J11 down to 13.0

So that red side has an on par aircraft with the competetion.

Also i have to somewhat agree that the Jas39A and mirage 4k Despite being BORDERLINE OP at 13.0, cannot really go up.

With that being said, i think that the best solution would be more decompression; more BRs.

Regarding the f14s

The F14A iriaf should be uptiered to 12.7 at the very least, as the addition of a 12.3 bracket would make this plane, hands down, an absolute menace.

The F14A is in a difficult situation, it’s probably too good to stay at 12.3, but it’s also not good enough to put it at 12.7 with the F14B, unless it gets uptiered to 13.0 but that would require some upgrades to the aircraft.

Therefore decompression is needed.

I think that the F14B is somewhat balanced, it’s not too good but is also not bad…

The phoenixes are fairly dodgeable, it has a good RWR and the radar is pretty good but you have to point it directly at the opponent.

The Aim9L’s (much much better than the R60M) are the best Non-IRCCM missiles paired with the python 3’s.
It has very good flare resistance and quite some range too.

The Aim7M is fairly decent, despite being inferior to the 27ER, this can be compensated by sheer numbers since the F14 can carry at least 4 SARH’s compared to just the 2 of the Mig29.

Lastly the BOL Cm’s can be pretty useful, since you have so many of them you can preflare IR missiles while having the AB off, and the Flight performance in the right hands can be quite deadly for other aircrafts.

As i said, the plane is somewhat balanced, but the problem starts to occur when you look at its competition.

For example The Mig29 is a pretty Mediocre aircraft, carried by the 2 27ER’s, which make up with great difficulty for it’s countless weaknesses such as; inferior IR missiles, Meh radar, Veeery mediocre Flight model, and fairly decent RWR (if u know how to read it).

In the end, The only real competitors the F14 has, are; the Mig29, yak 141 and Mirage 2K (but only if france happens to be on blue side).

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This is probably the 4th topic about the matter. Tomcat NEEDS to be moved up, it’s just too strong/annoying to face without fox3. It makes for a terrible experience for everyone playing on the other side. Hopefully soon there will be BR adjustments for sim too, and I hope to see it moved up, and a clear separation between fox3 and fox1 carriers, no matter the platform those missiles are on.