Nice argument senator, why dont you back it up with a source
Budy I understand what you are saying, the anti aircaft gun on a ship is not the same as a trophy system on a tank that shoots several projectiles upwards to intercept the incoming round. It takes quite a few programablem rounds to shoot the missle which you have displayed. They are entirely different systems, please whatch several youtube videos of Merkava tank’s trophy systems not even responding to incoming projectiles and having to count on well built armor. There are TV guided missles to which APS systems will not even respond to.
The part of trophy having a very good chance of knocking out an atgm is true but those are ground based usually not coming from an angle greater than 40 degrees, Trophy in theory covers the tank but it will not go off on every single munition that is a fact proven in IRL. This is not to discredit trophy but you are comparing two different systems, a designated programable anti aircarft gun and its rounds to trophy sorry bud but that is like comparing apples and oranges.
I agree with you statments about programable rounds and anti-aircraft systems on a ship but that is not the same as trophy aps on a tank. The discussion is about that. And anti aircaft guns on a ship will not shoot every incoming missile, hint hypersonic or missile overload.
Ships have an entire radar station tracking incoming targets and multiple operators, tanks dont have that.
Please read even this article which clearly shows the well built armor vs aps.
Trophy Active Protection System Fails to Protect Merkava | TURDEF and this is just a surface based article nothing in depth.
Marketing lies tbh, not like the Kh-38MT, that’s 100% realistic in game. <3
Thank god they made this more accurate for the upcomming MITL, few, can’t wait for other NATO missiles to get this special treatment
Spoiler
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wdym they do not response??? the mayority of videos cut the recording before hitting and never show the aftermatch, while some few shows a Merkava tank not operative turnedd off (and so the Trophy system its also off).
Tho yeah, Trophy will not likely be able to destroy a big missile like KH-31 or KH-38
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Phalanx and similar systems dont use programmable rounds. They just fire old fashioned tungsten AP - kinetic effects.
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If anything a missile coming in at higher/steeper angles of attack are easier for APS sensors to detect. Less ground clutter and a clearer return.
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A tank is easier to defend than a ship. It is smaller - your APS doesn’t need to worry about covering other ships - just the immediate zone around the tank.It is also dealing with smaller munitIons. Even the largest ATGM from a plane/helo is nothing compared to a small Anti-Ship missile in terms of speed and mass. Remember - you don’t even need to destroy a missile outright - you can destroy the fuzing/sensors or mess up it’s aerodynamics to cause your very finely balanced flying munition to miss.
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You underestimate just how energetic an interception from a modern APS is. Trophy uses an explosive formed projectile method - effectively launching an incredibly fast and focused projectile into an inbound round. It can effectively cut it in two.
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Defence Websites are fine and all - I wouldn’t take anything from them as the last word on a matter. Far better is to see what people are actually doing/spending money on. Note how many nations are all equipping their MBTs/AFVs with APS. In a world of drones, top attack missiles and better air-launched ATGMs - most militaries are heading down the APS route. They would not do this without a certain degree of confidence that the systems do what they are designed to.
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A tank with APS stands a better chance against an air launched ATGM than one without. You can query the precise chances or probabilities of a successful intercept of something like Kh-38 - but the fact remains that APS adds another layer of defense that was simply not available a few years ago.
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There are more instances of throphy not intercepting incoming projectiles, as you stated it could have been turned off, turret not pointing towards incoming projectile and simply flying at an angle greater than 65 degrees, there is no aftermath because they did not pen the armor of the tank in many places Merkava tanks have about 1200mm of protection against heat projectiles.
This is about me trying to support the idea of trophy not working as many in warthunder beleive it to work. Not about the tank or its survivability. Not many people pay attention to things like that especially crazed otter who is now explaining how anti-aircraft systems on a ship work which is not the intent of teh comment. As we know Merkava has several protective layers and trophy is only one of them. To be fair trophy might be its weakest link.
My idea is for the game is not to create scenarios in which aps regadless of make start intercepting airborn munition for which there is very little evidence.
Ok I am not arguing about its effectivness against atgms in the video you are showing an rpg round launched at it, not a hellfire missile or any other air launched missile, my original intent was to make sure that gajiin does not give aps (trophy, arena, etc…) capabilities of shooting down missiles fired by airborn platforms since there is hardly any evidence of it occuring. Sure in theory and in specific scenarios they might be able to do it but havent seen any video evidence of the sort you just provided.
I agree with you about it being necessary without a doubt. Its just that the game should not all of a sudden allow aps to start intercepting projectiles it cant do.
What is different of a Javelin fired from the ground or a hellfire from the air??? absolutely ZERO the only things that matters is what the aps covers and the speed it can detect and intercept a munition, some aps cant intercept munitions coming from above because they don’t have such coverage ( Drozd APS) meanwhile modern APS systems like the Trophy and Arena or Iron Fist have a 360 coverage that can see and intercept any munition by any direction except if the munition is too slow or too fast
That is what all those systems state that they have a 360 degree protection is that true or not ? If true then why have they failed and not intercepted so many different projectiles launched at different angles at those vehicles. If they were so effective why are multiple drones having such devestating effect against armored vehicles. What about TV guided projectiles? A missile fired from 2 km above ground will come at an angle far greater than land based systems. Javelins are not as accurate and they are mainly launched from a standstill position in comparison to air launched missiles and that matters a lot.
This 360 degree protection is what I have seen on youtube videos yet reality paints a different picture.
when did you see them failed? In the Merkavas all of them were not working they were parked or the drones were too slow for the APS to care,
because like drones are like 500 times slower than missiles? that the APS were build to intercept? and having 10 drones with an rpg-7 mountain does a lot of damage
you know what a 360 coverage means?
what? what about a hellfire fired from the ground? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTc66S8o1XQ here on this video it intercepts an atgm happy?
360 PROTECTION AGAINST MISSILES AND RPGs NOT DRONES, in game you van easily kamikaze your drone into an Merkava Mk.4M i have done it personally many times in all the vehicles the APS never gets activated
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I am not only referring to Merkava tanks, there are telegram channels which report on conflicts and have displayed a number of different tanks whith aps systems being hit. you can check them out yourself.
You have pointed out a video showing ground based launch in perfect conditions at a 0/90 dgeree angle aimd at the hull of the tank. That is not airborn launched as I have been stating. That is a promo video which you have shown me.
360 degree coverage is a statment maded by manufactorers and discovery channel shows not reality. I perfectly understand the meaning of 360 degree coverage. ( Please show me an air launched missile being intercepted or at least a credible report stating that it has intercepted an airborn launched ordinance).
As I have already stated ground bases systems have been intercepted by trophy, rpg and ground launched missiles. There are also cases of trophy not intercepting missiles. An Iranian copy of spike did indeed hit a Merkava it was displayed on telegram with trophy present on tank. (conditions of trophy are not known). The point being here is that Trophy does not work 100% of the time, nor does any other aps. I stated a missile fired from 2km above ground meaning launnched by a helicopter read carefully. The interception of that helfire missile coming at a steep angle from which a tank is not expecting the projectile to come from is close to 0%.
can you provide a source?
yes nor in the game works 100%
no its the usual 70-100% interception rate, its 360 covrage and above not only in the sides
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Mx9lFziIsxk
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yiFLcGc5W3o
videos were the intercept munitions from the top
If you thing a Country like Israel that has build the Merkava around one thing and that it is the Crew survival and have spent bilions of dollars into the APS systems its all a scam an they cant intercept air fired munitions what can i say, or Germany and USA among many other countries putting this APS in their most modern tanks, you thing they haven’t tested them? you thing they would put an APS that doesn’t work if the missile is top attack?
Once again rpg style rounds this time at steeper angels of attack but not a missile launched by aircarft or helicopter traveling at a higher velocity in which the tank and subsequent aps system has enough time to react not irl. Those being promo videos perfecr conditions for tanks to do so. A lot of military projects hint not just US or Russia or Israel have proven to be too expensive and ineffective. Not saying aps is ineffective entirely but again all those were perfect conditions in which the interceptions could be made.
As for the sources you would need telegram to access.
the radar converge is the same all around what makes you believe its weaker from top attack ?
no? why do you thing the 2A8 has one? or the T-90M2 that is getting build now or any Israeli APC to IFV and MBT and even bulldozers have one
all videos i have seen are stationary tank that are probably turned off
Yes they do help without a doubt but the catch 22 is how effective are they against air launched missiles in irl if they are proven to be effective then we can have them intercepted in game.
Radar coverage on a tank is not that great it would detect the missile way to late (if at all) since it wont know exactly where to search and point at. Radar coverage is limited, it is not an ESA dedicated radar searching for threats. It is better having a tank with aps but dont count on it saving you from heli missiles especially advanced missiles such as vikhr and limur or updated helfires (brimstones) etc.
are you an engineer or something? do you know better than so many people that have created and tested them? if the radar can detect the missile (if its not too fast or too slow) then they have very very fast reaction times and they can destroy the missile no matter were they come from, now if you thing its a marketing lie its up to you, with the same logic i can start claiming the era in the Russian tanks are wooden pellets or the Abrams have never gotten any additional armor since 1990, or that the seeker in the r77 is fake and its actually a fox 1 missile and many other thing like that
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