Revived COIN & Maritime patrol Aircraft + COIN TT Brainstorm thread

[AspandaIV]

Hi this is the revival of the “Counter Insurgency aircraft” thread from the old forums. Most of you should be at least familiar with what COIN is , for people who don’t know what COIN is. COIN both a doctrine and a type of light attack aircraft that is specialised in A: taking out lightly armed targets and B: Anti-armour purposes predominately used against insurgents though they can be used against proper military targets in a pinch. COIN aircraft are typically slow, nimble and pack a punch in terms of air to ground ordinances

One thing of note is that there is a large overlap between most [but not all] combat trainers and COIN aircraft since they go hand to hand

The next part is how to implement these aircraft since the addition of these aircraft is controversial due to how difficult is it to balance them in a historical, gameplay/balance and in some cases both. Because of that we need to determine if a COIN can be added to the Air TT with little to no issue and which COIN aircraft can be added either to the Helicopter TT or even a dedicated COIN TT

If there is any COIN aircraft or suggestions for COIN aircraft that i missed please let me know and yes Maritime patrol aircraft will be counted

List of COIN Aircraft [sorted by Nation]

US

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T-6 Texan family

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TBA

O-2 Skymaster Family: Also extensively used by Portugal

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TBA

OV-10 Bronco family

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TBA

OV-1 Mohawk: Argentina also operates this model

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The Mohawk was normally a Reece aircraft with some OV-1’s being modified or built from the ground up to use SLAR. The Mohawks can also be used as a light attack and COIN aircraft mounting munitions on 6 hardpoints near the far ends of the wings. Argentina brought several Mohawks during the 1990’s and used them until 2015. Some sources state that Israel also operated the Mohawk however i am unable to verify it

Convair Model 48 Charger

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Convair proposal for the LARA program that the US Army and Airforce put out. Ultimately it alongside the Cl-760 from Lockheed in favour for the Bronco from NA Rockwell.

Armament wise it basically can carry most weapons from the Bronco however it can use AIM-9B’s

Lockheed CL-760

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Lockheed’s proposal for the LARA program that the US Army and Airforce put out. Ultimately it alongside the Charger from Convair in favour for the Bronco from NA Rockwell.

Armament wise it basically can carry most weapons from the Bronco however it can use some guided munitions in the form of AIM-9B’s and Bullpups

Lockheed CL-760 LARA Cold War Failure - PlaneHistoria

AT-28E

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Prototype variant of the AT-28 Trojan intended as a COIN and light attack aircraft with a turoprop engine and expanded weapons load

Cavalier Mustang & Piper Enforcer

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TBA

Beechcraft YAU-22A

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Prototype light attack variant of the Beechcraft Bonaza, can equip unguided bombs, rocketpods and HMG gunpods

T-2E Buckeye: Built in the US, Operated by the Hellenic Airforce

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TBA

S-3A Viking

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TBA

AP-2H

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Specialised Night Ground Attack variant of the P-2 Neptune operated during the Vietnam War

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USSR

My knowledge on Russian COIN aircraft is vert limited so if you have additional knowledge on them or even any Russian COIN aircraft that i miss Please let me know

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Yak 52B

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Technoavia Rysachok

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Technoavia SM-92P

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Germany

There is [unfortunately] not a lot of COIN aircraft Germany operated let alone developed domestically. Also i’m trying to see if the Fantrainer can be armed with armaments

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Bu-131C-1

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A Bucker 131 Bestman Trainer modified to carry Panzerfaust rockets

L-39ZO: Also operated by Hungary

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The L-39ZO is a variant of the L-39 operated by several countries including East Germany, it only can equip unguided secondary ordiances and 23mm autocannons

UK

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Britten Norman Defender

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The Britten Norman Defender is a multirole utility aircraft used by various airforces including the RAF including COIN roles

NDN-1 Firecracker

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Prototype Trainer aircraft that can carry some light armament loadouts

link to active suggestion
NDN Firecracker: The Tucanos Baby Cousin

Short Tucano

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Licensed built variant of the Embraer 312 by Short, used by Kenya and Kuwait

Percival Provost: Armed variants operated by Ireland, Myanmar, Oman and South Rhodesia

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TBA

Scottish Aviation Bulldog

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Scottish Aviation Twin Pioneer

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Jet Provost T.5

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TBA

BAC-Strikemaster

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Technically in game in the form of the Strikemaster Mk.88 however that vehicle has some inaccuracies mostly in terms of it’s armament the specifics of which will be elaborated in the “Strikemaster Mk.88” Tab. The British and BAC did prototype the model. RAF pilots also flown Strikemasters under the behest of the Sultan of Oman to quell communist insurgents in Dhofar

link to active suggestion for the addition of the Strikemaster Mk.82
BAC Strikemaster Mk.82: Oh Man

Japan

There is [unfortunately] even less COIN aircraft Japan operated so it need’s COIN vehicles from other nations particularly Thailand and the Philippines to fill them up

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Mitsubishi MU-2K/LR-1: New Zealand and Argentina also operated the [same family of] model

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The MU-2/LR-1 is a Utility aircraft used in liaison, Reece and training duties. Normally it is unarmed but in a pinch can be armed with rocketpods, bombs and 50.cal HMG’s. Argentine MU-2 were used in the Falklands war mainly to aid Pucara crews mainly pathfinding

link to active suggestion
Mitsubishi LR-1 (MU-2K)

Fletcher/PAC-Toyo FD-25: Prototypes produced in the US, Combat production Vehicles produced in Japan, operated by South Vietnam, current IP holders of the aircraft design and Civilian production vehicles [designated as FD-24] in New Zealand

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Flecther FD-25 is the combat counterpart of the FD-24 a lightweight aircraft mostly used for agricultural purposes. The prototypes were made by Californian based aircraft manufacturer Fletcher. Production of the COIN variant [FD-25] was handed over to Toyo, a Japanese based aircraft manufacturer while the civilian model [FD-24] was handed over to PAC.

link to active suggestion
Fletcher/Toyo FD-25 Defender

MT-X: A lot of info on this is largely unknown all i know it is a Advanced Trainer & Light Attack aircraft

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Italy

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Aermacchi AM.3 & SIAI-Marchetti SM 1019

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Both aircraft are STOL Liaison aircraft built by Aermacchi and SIAI-Marchetti respectively in the 1970’s. It can equip light weapon loads in 2 or 4 hardpoints

SM.1019

AM.3

SF-260 Warrior family

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TBA

Caproni Ventura C22J

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TBA

France

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Fouga Magister family

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TBA

Dassault Breguet Guardian 2

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Dedicated Maritime patrol variant of the Dassault Falcon 200 can use Air to Ground and Anti-Ship armaments

Socata Rallye R235 Guerrier

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Light trainer and liaison aircraft with 4 hardpoints for light munitions, used by El-Salvador and Senegal

MD.311 Flamant

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French light Transport aircraft converted into a COIN and Ground Attack aircraft, used in the Algerian war of Independence by the French against Algerian Marxist Insurgents

Is armed with 2 50.cals as well as Air to Ground weapons on 6 hardpoints including AS.11 AGM’s

China

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T-CH-1

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Taiwanese Turboprop powered Advanced trainer and light attack aircraft developed from the T-28 Trojan

Finland & Sweden

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MFI-9B Militrainer

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TBA

MFI-17 Supporter

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TBA

Sk-61

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Swedish designation for the Scottish Aviation Bulldog. Can mount BANTAM ATGM’s unlike the British Bulldogs

Israel

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IAI-201 Arava

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TBA

IAI 1124N Seascan

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Israeli Maritime Patrol variant of the IAI Westwind

Zuid Afrika & South Rhodesia

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AM.3CM Bosbok

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Licensed built variant of the Aermacchi AM.3

AHRLAC (Prototype/Still being developed)

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TBA

Rheims-Cessna Lynx

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Other/Nations not represented in game

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Yugoslavia

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Soko 522

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1950’s era Yugoslav Advanced trainer armed with 2 50.cals and small bombs

Soko J-20 Krauj

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Dedicated COIN aircraft built in the 1960’s armed with a pair of LMG’s and hardpoints for bombs up to 100kg and rocketpods

Utva-66

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Yugoslav liaison aircraft akin to the German Fieseler Fi-156 Storch

Utva-75

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Light utility and trainer aircraft from the 1970’s, used by every post Yugoslav nation and saw service in the Yugoslav wars

Poland

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PZL TS-8 Bies

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Polish Trainer aircraft from the 1950’s. Normally it is unarmed however it can mount 1 50.cal and 2 wing mounted hardpoints for bombs and rockets

PZL TS-11 Iskra: Also used by India

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Advanced Trainer and Light Attacker armed with 1 23mm autocannon and provisions for unguided weapons on 4 wing mounted hardpoints

PZL 130 Orlik

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Polish turboprop advanced trainer comparable to the Swiss PC-21

Czechoslovakia and Czechia

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L-29 Delfin: Operated by several countries including the USSR and East Germany

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Early cold war trainer aircraft that can be armed with small rocketpods, bombs and lmgs on 2 hardpoints (one on each wing)

L-39 & 59 family

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TBA

Romania and Bulgaria

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IAR-823

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Light utility aircraft produced by Romanian aircraft manufacturer “IAR”

Switzerland

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PC-2

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TBA

PC-7

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TBA

PC-9

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TBA

Spain & Portugal

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C.6

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The C.6 is a Unique Spanish variant of the T-6 Texan armed with 80mm Oerlikon rockets, domestically built bombs (both HE & Napalm) and 7.7mm Breda Safat LMG’s. Spain used them in the Ifrni war and against Polisario front insurgents in Spanish Sahara colony

HA-100 Triana

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Prototype Spanish advanced trainer in a pinch it can be used in a Light Attack and COIN roles. Armament consists of a pair of 7.7mm Breda Safat LMG’s and 80mm Oerlikon rockets

HA-200 Saetta family

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TBA

CASA C.101 family

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TBA

HA-500 Alacran (Mock up built only)

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This was a Ground Attack vehicle proposed by Hispano in the late 1960’s not only pitched for the Spanish airforce but also for foreign Airforces such as the Argentine Airforce. A mockup was built however it did not progressed any further from there

Do-27K: Built in Germany, modified by Portugal

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The Dornier Do-27 is a ultralight liaison and Reece aircraft operated by various airforces including both the Luftwaffe and the Portuguese airforce. The Luftwaffe examples were unarmed however the Portuguese modified theirs to carry air to ground munitions on the wings

Argentina

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IA 35 Huanquero

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Large postwar Argentine utility designed by the famed German aircraft Kurt Tank. Can equip 2 nose mounted 50.cals while Matra rockets and small bombs can be equipped on the wings

IA-58 Pucara family

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TBA

FMA MS-760 Paris: Originally a French Design, built under license and modified by Argentina

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The Paris originally a 1950’s Trainer and COIN aircraft by Morane-Saulnier was given licensed for production not only in Brazil but also Argentina. The Argentines gave their Paris’s various upgrade during their lifespan including greatly increasing it’s payload from it’s original amount. Argentine Paris’s saw combat service in the 1963 Navy revolt by the pro-army (government) airforce

Brazil

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Embraer P-95 Bandeirulha

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Maritime Patrol aircraft developed by Embraer, it was also operated by Argentina and saw service during the Falklands war

India

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HJT-16 Kiran

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Jet powered Trainer and light attack aircraft akin to the Strikemasters

HAL HTT-40 (Prototype/Still being developed)

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TBA

Pakistan

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MFI-395 Super Mushshak

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Licensed variant of the MFI-17 Supporter with expanded loadouts, intended for Pro-Turkish Middle Eastern and Sub-Saharan Nations

Thailand and the Philippines

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Temco/AJI T-610 Super Pinto/Calí: Joint American-Filipino Venture

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Jet powered Attack aircraft intended for the Filipino Airforce

Turkey

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TAI Hurkus

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TBA

Iran

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HESA Yasin (Prototype/Still being developed)

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Trainer and Light Attacker that somewhat resembles the C.101 Aviojet though outside of appearance and roles they have little to nothing in common otherwise

HESA Bavar family

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Unique Iranian Floatplane/Ground Effect vehicle, normally wasn’t armed however it is speculated that it has some armament loadouts including LMG’s, some dumb ammunitions and guided weapons in the form of AGM’s and ASM’s

United Arab Emirates

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Calidus/Bader B-250: Joint Brazilian-Emirati venture (Prototype/Still being developed)

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Summary TBA

New Zealand

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PAC CT-4: Built in New Zealand, intended combat role for Thailand?

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The CT-4 was a light basic trainer. Normally it was unarmed however a pair of rocketpods were trialed on it, Neither the RNZAF or the RAAF had them armed so the rocketpods is mainly aimed for foreign buyers. Through a process of elimination i have concluded the CT-4 for intended combat is for the RTAF

BAC-Strikemaster Mk.88

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Already ingame however it is missing several secondary munitions types as well as having munitions that New Zealand did not have

Australia

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GAF Nomad: Also operated by several South East Asian Nations

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The Nomad was a lightweight utility vehicle. Normally it wasn’t armed however it can be armed with 4 hardpoints on wings and 1 fuselage hardpoint, exact details on what armament it uses is unknown to me

Canada

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Canadair CT-133AT: Canadian Built AT-33’s, France also operates the model

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TBA

CL-41 Tutor family

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The Tutors were lightweight trainers built by Canadair to fulfil a requirement set out by the RCAF to replace their fleet of CT-133’s. Canada eventually accepted it into service however there is a couple variants of note

CL-41G

Dedicated Light Attack variant with 6 hardpoints (2 on the fuselage, 4 on the wings)

CL-41R (Prototype)

Trainer variant with a radar set from a CF-104 it only has 2 hardpoints unlike the CL-14G

CL-28 Argus

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Unique Canadian Maritime patrol aircraft based of the Bristol Britannia. Can carry up a total of 3600 kg of ordinances including bombs, depth charges torpedoes. Rockets and Bullpup AGM’s were also prototyped on the Argus

CL-84 Dynavert

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A unique Canadian V/STOL aircraft intended to be used on ships. Because of that it has several intended roles including anti-ship and anti-submarine roles. Can equip Minigun gunpods, depth charges and bombs on the fuselage. A proper Attacker variant was proposed but never pass the drawing board while the Dynavert never passed the prototype phase with only 4 examples being built

Artist impression of the proposed attack variant

Harvard IIa & IV: Canadian built Texans

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TBA

[AspandaIV]

Link to the thread in the old forum

https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/494884-feedback-counter-insurgency-aircraft/page/5/

[Miraz05]

Can we consider this as a COIN aircraft?

[AspandaIV]

That is an autogyro so it is kinda of a helicopter but also kinda not at the same time though it is amusing to see

So maybe, i need second opinions on autogyros

[Kingtiez]

Belarusian MF-212

More information

Russian L-39

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[Zodicab]

Seeing that they are adding br separation for rb and ab soon i think we would be seeing some COIN crafts like the ov-10 be added.

[StormRyder13]

For Canadian maritime patrol, there is also the

CP-140 Aurora.

Well, it’s based on the P-3 it has a different electronics suite. and can’t use the exact same weapons as the P-3.

Plus you could always use the CP-140M which rename happened after a domestic modernization
program.

---

Tho some of the photos are interesting an it’ll be something i need to check

[Miraz05]

This our locally built trainer. COIN version will be made when it will enter mass production.

[lxtav]

Great post, +1! I have a few more british COIN aircraft you could add

First is the Scottish aviation bulldog, used by both Britain and Sweded (as the SK-61) a light trainer/ attack aircraft. In swedish service they used the Bantam ATGM whereas the brit one just had access to Unguided weaponry

Second is the Scottish aviation Twin pioneer, a larger transport aircraft armed with a 2000lbs bomb load and/or Missiles

Suggestions for these are currently pending :)

[AspandaIV]

I already know that the Bulldog can carry weaponloads however the Twin pioneer carrying weapons is a good find

[Uncle_J_Wick]

@AspandaIV

The next part is how to implement these aircraft since the addition of these aircraft is controversial due to how difficult is it to balance them in a historical, gameplay/balance and in some cases both.

As an aircraft enthusiast i would like to see all aircraft as a flyable option.

The question is imho who is willing to fly or fight them in an asymmetrical environment (=that’s their main purpose) and if gaijin is willing to offer such a usage in case there would be a significant demand (=economical justification) to implement them.

Imho the roots of COIN aircraft are in WW 2 - if you had the chance to educate yourself you have noticed that a lot of lightly armed trainer / transport aircraft were used by Germany above occupied Eastern Europe to fight irregular troops (Partisans) - and the later usage was either vs guys in sandals (like Vietnam) or against their own population (= Insurgencies) on the African continent.

So from a military point of view the actual usage is rather morally questionable and for a combat simulator in the broader sense (= WT) i see no real purpose for them, at least not in the current setup of wt.

So in other words - you or fellow players can post hundreds of pictures of rather interesting aircraft - as long as they can’t fulfill their main purpose (= fighting mainly infantry without adequate defenses) following this path is imho a dead end…

Have a good one!

[MAUSWAFFE]

For the Thailand and the Philippines some SF.260 and derivatives could make the list too

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PAF SF.260TP variant with turboprop engine

PAF SF.260W variant with Piston engine

Thai SF.260W before and after being modified with Thai components into the experimental B.ChOr.2 aircraft. While not armed in the pictures, the W variant can be armed and used in the COIN role as necessary.

The two prototypes of the RTAF-6 (B.ThOr.6) as well as a pre production aircraft. The prototypes were most likely modified from two SF.260TP aircraft Thailand purchased, while the pre-production airframes are Thai produced. Similar to the W variant, these can be armed and used in a COIN role.

I’m also working on a suggestion for the Thai modified aircraft, but it’ll take a bit more time.

[StormRyder13]

@AspandaIV

Harvard IV: Canadian built Texans

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Uhhh- source for armed Harvards?

Because when I went looking I couldn’t find any weaponry on them used by Canada.

[LeonDasPro]

Harvard IIa was the Canadian armed T-6 variant. Wasn’t used for COIN but rather as a combat and weapons trainer. Several airforce have used the Texan/Harvard in combat including the US, British, Israel and more but not the Canadians it seems.

There’s is a blurred line over what what seperates an armed trainer from a light attacker/coin aircraft but the former are usually very lightly armed and lack any armour, whilst the latter may have light armour and generally a wider and heavier variety of stores. The T-6 family is closer to the first category.

[AspandaIV]

Note the image below is a Harvard Mk.2 but the Mk.4 is an evolution of the Mk.2 so it can still use the same armaments

[StormRyder13]

What weapons are those? when I went looking for armed Harvard all I found were dummy bombs and an “air” machine gun.

I’m mostly asking for my Canadian air tree project I had looked for armed Harvards before but only found ZA had used them like that and it ended up being a dead end. but I might now have a new plane for it.

@LeonDasPro

Harvard IIa was the Canadian armed T-6 variant. Wasn’t used for COIN but rather as a combat and weapons trainer.

Indeed. Most/to all of Canada’s WW2 trainer aircraft production was going help with the “British Commonwealth Air Training Plan”. and vary few was going to be used for combat.

[AspandaIV]

I have found out that Belgium has operated Harvard IIA’s and even upgraded theirs to Harvard Mk.IV standards designated "Harvard Mk.4KA

Even if Canada didn’t use them in a COIN/Light Attack role it can still be added since it is an Canadian built aircraft

https://www.belgian-wings.be/north-american-t-6-harvard-base

[StormRyder13]

ah, Belgium used them armed.

oh! I needed more WW2 premium options thanks.

[コタリ]

Japan’s L19Es have wired pylons for rockets.

[mr_boo]

Congo did too, but with suspiciously white-looking pilots

Wait you’re not gonna add it to a Canadian tree are you?