Responding to the Severe Damage feedback & release time

[MDzmitryj]

@Koentine

It should be considered severe damage if the fire burns long enough to cause severe damage, simple enough to me.

And it will if you care to read a bit further into the explanation. Any damage done by fire that’s considered severe will be accounted to the player who started the fire

[Koentine]

@MDzmitryj

And it will if you care to read a bit further into the explanation. Any damage done by fire that’s considered severe will be accounted to the player who started the fire

Yeah, I just saw that, my bad.

[LeChance]

It kinda does that now, if you set a plane on fire, and they proceed to fly off, the damage from the fire continues and many times you will see a “Critical Hit” msg from that plane and then often “Airplane Destroyed” as they succumb to the fire. So that part is actually a proper working scenario for what may occur in some cases. Exactly how that might change under this new system, I am not really sure. But it seems like a proper series of actions/events in current air combat encounters.
I think it is pretty obvious that this whole new mechanic was originally thought up and designed with top tier jet play in mind, “prop” planes have been on the backburner for a good long while and a great many of the “changes” that have been made overall have been directly related to higher tier gameplay and how it affects lower to mid tier games has not been much of a concern.
I understand that modern era vehicles has provided Gaijin with a great boon and most likely is currently the mainstay of their income . . . I get that. It would just be nice if the portions of the game that got us all to this point were not overlooked and made less exciting/interesting and “profitable” to those of us that truly enjoy that part of the game. I could make a good long list of changes that have been to “better” jet play, that ultimately have proven to either be a scoring nerf for lower tiers or just adversely effect the game play there in general. But that is not what this thread is about, my only hope is that this new mechanic(which we are getting whether we want it or not) does not fall into that category as well, but it’s hard not have that feeling of more impending doom most of the time when it comes to new features and changes to the game . . . .lol. I like to be optimistic, but also . … I am pragmatic as well, so . . . . guess we’ll just have to wait & see.

[Bruce_R1]

Also a lot less crits since the crits with an instakill were removed as part of this, too.

[bananomet]

IDK why you have to overcomplicate things to grotesque proportions. Forget all the mumbo jumbo seVerElY dAmaGEd aiRcraFT kIlL CouNTeD

Cause majority of damage = kill.
Cause minor damage = assist.
simple as

[_Poul]

@Bruce_R1

Also a lot less crits since the crits with an instakill were removed as part of this, too.

We are not sure if that’s a bug or intended change. I really hope this is just a bug. But this matter can be discussed in different topics:

Critical hits are broken as of 15th of February or nearby

Just got a t2 task “make 10 critical hits”. Usually, this is a matter of a game or two. But I have now killed 29 planes and 10 assists, and only got credit for 6 critical hits. Something broke during the last update or the one before. Wonder if it is related to this: “The detachment of an aircraft wing when the allowable load is exceeded is no longer counted as a destruction, the same as with the tearing off of flaps or landing gear.” So if 30 kills yield ~6 criticals, you need 50 kills for …

Critical hits in Air RB / broken & hard to get

I am not sure if the majority of Air RB players had the opportunity to follow the thread of the fellow Air AB players, they have discussed the fact that critical hits become much harder to score than before the 15th of February 2024. I’d like to draw your attention to the posts of the fellow player @_Poul - they describe current effects in general and with examples for Air AB; should be worth your time to read them. Especially when he combines the low amount of crits with upcoming changes in wt…

I understand that Gaijin never give you something without taking anything in return. But in the case of severe damage mechanics, they already did that. They gave players more frags (possible 2 frags from 1 target), but decreased rewards if two players attack the same target (instead of the current 100% for destruction + 60% for assist, players can only receive 80% for severe damage + 40% for finishing off).

So this new system already reduces rewards (instead of the current 160% combined rewards, players will be able to only gain 120%). They didn’t have to touch critical hits to meet the “we have to take something from the players too” rule.

[Bruce_R1]

@_Poul_

We are not sure if that’s a bug or intended change. I really hope this is just a bug

It’s almost certainly part of the same change. Otherwise it would tangle this new mechanic even further. If you severe damage someone, and then someone else instakills, player #2 would get 70% of the score (30% for the instakill crit plus 40% for the finish-off), almost as much as the 80 the first player gets. Or should not that 30% crit bonus you used to get on instakills go with the severe damage reward (so it’s actually 110% each time). Under what circumstances would a severe not also count as a crit? None.

As it is going to be now it kind of makes sense.
–If you instakill you get 100% reward now (used to be 130% because of the crit bonus but whatever)
–If you crit someone enough to damage them and set them up for the kill you get the crit and eventually the assist score (60+30 = 90% of the score value of the kill… ignoring the separate kill bonuses applied later in the scoring calculation for these purposes), same as before
–If you severe damage them enough to kill them, but don’t kill them yourself (basically the same thing) you get a similar award (80%)
–If you just stroll in after and plink the dying aircraft you get 40% (down from 60). Giving them 70 by giving them the instakill crit bonus they never had before as well would be too generous, I’m sure the conclusion was.

Also, this change was enacted affecting ground AA crits a month ago, it appears, extending to air a couple weeks later as they shaped the code around this new change. So yeah, instakill crits are gone as part of this, which is another significant reduction to player scores. Basically everyone’s net score is going to be worse, but people who feel they had their kill stolen get a someone more personally affirming death message, so maybe they don’t want to TK their team mate so much. That’s the only real difference here (oh and everybody’s repair costs will be a little higher and no one’s stats will make any sense).

I am a little concerned about them extending this to ground surface targets though, where instakill crits are also worth 20% more score than “delayed” kills due to that same crit bonus.

[sardinha08]

@Bruce_R1

–If you instakill you get 100% reward now (used to be 130% because of the crit bonus but whatever)
–If you crit someone enough to damage them and set them up for the kill you get the crit and eventually the assist score (60+30 = 90% of the score value of the kill… ignoring the separate kill bonuses applied later in the scoring calculation for these purposes), same as before
–If you severe damage them enough to kill them, but don’t kill them yourself (basically the same thing) you get a similar award (80%)
–If you just stroll in after and plink the dying aircraft you get 40% (down from 60). Giving them 70 by giving them the instakill crit bonus they never had before as well would be too generous, I’m sure the conclusion was.

You’ll get a bigger reward for getting an assist than for getting a “kill”(done by severely damaging your target). Gaijin is trying really hard to ruin this game.
Also, I wonder how will these changes affect assists since with the “old” and current system different players could get an assist from the same target, and what about with the new system, will the same target keep providing several assists for different players? Cause if the assist is replaced by the new “kill”(done by finishing off the target) then the nerf in rewards is much much bigger than what already confirmed.

@Bruce_R1

I am a little concerned about them extending this to ground surface targets though, where instakill crits are also worth 20% more score than “delayed” kills due to that same crit bonus.

This already kind of happens in Ground, if you instakill some tank you may end with less rewards than if you kill it with several shots, simply because you will get less crits and hits for the instakill.

[Target1331]

@Stona_WT

There were also some requests to add a similar mechanic to ground and naval vehicles. While we discussed this internally, there’s no specific plans drawn up for this as we don’t see it as necessary at the moment.

It definitely is necessary in naval, because right now it is always the last person that hits the enemy before he dies is the one getting the kill… even if someone else did 99% of the damage.

That is part of the reason ships with a high rate of fire are so good; They have a much higher chance to get the last hit in before the enemy dies. That’s actually the tactic nowadays if naval kills are required. Take a ship that has a high fire rate and just look for ships that have low health. Blast them with the rapid fire will then usually net the kill, despite not putting in the effort to get the enemy to the low health status in the first place.

Best regards,
Phil
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My complete tech trees (incl. all special vehicles) spreadsheet is updated to match 2.23 (only accurate atm for list & status of vehicles): War Thunder Tech Trees 2.31 (V15.00 temp - does not have all the last econ changes) - Google Spreadsheets Contains probably all vehicles WT has published.

[Cepeleon]

I have said elsewhere but this mechanic really needs to be adopted in Naval. I am so sick of taking an enemy down 95% only for some bot or ally to single shot it and get the kill. And in most cases I don’t event see an assist.

Please consider this for Naval, not just Air.

[Bruce_R1]

So score wise, damaging a destroyer is worth 440 points total. The kill is worth 30, the assist 10. So if you did 95% of the damage, you made 428 points of score and the other player in this case made 52 from that kill. So we’re talking about 20 points of score you missed.

As we’ve seen here with air, the results on the player are lowered net score for all players for air to air kills, significantly harder daily task completion (due to reduction of crits and assists) and an increased repair bill for everybody. I’m fine if the air mode keeps this to itself, thanks.

@sardinha08

Also, I wonder how will these changes affect assists since with the “old” and current system different players could get an assist from the same target, and what about with the new system, will the same target keep providing several assists for different players? Cause if the assist is replaced by the new “kill”(done by finishing off the target) then the nerf in rewards is much much bigger than what already confirmed.

Bruce_R1:

Since the finishing off won’t count as a “real assist” assist tasks will also be a little harder than they could have been. As Poul pointed out you could sometimes shoot a gray target as it was augering in and get some assist or hit points for that. Can’t say I did it that much intentionally, but it was score that was there for the taking before.

The greater loss to the player here is on instakills. The 30% reduction in instakill score with no offsetting compensation has already disadvantaged air-to-air play relative to ground pounding in this current event. Basically in the Jaguar event that’s on now if you focus on air kills you’re running at a multiplier bracket lower than everyone else (so rank I-III AB you’re actually doing 0.7, as opposed to 0.8 in the New Years event). (Plus you may be paying more SL to change up battlepass tasks as the crit tasks are much harder and probably not worth it now.)

[sardinha08]

@Bruce_R1

Since the finishing off won’t count as a “real assist” assist tasks will also be a little harder than they could have been. As Poul pointed out you could sometimes shoot a gray target as it was augering in and get some assist or hit points for that. Can’t say I did it that much intentionally, but it was score that was there for the taking before.

I usually don’t get many assists cause I tend to destroy my targets completely(got too many of them still turning on my back while being grey and ruining my plane before) but I’m afraid that this change will not only change the rewards of players that get the kill since the critical is no longer awarded to a instakill, a severe damage will only grant 80% and a finish off only 40%. But since rewards are also given to assists I wonder if we will see a decrease in the number of assists too, which used to give a better reward than the new doing severe damage or finish off a target.

@Bruce_R1

The greater loss to the player here is on instakills. The 30% reduction in instakill score with no offsetting compensation has already disadvantaged air-to-air play relative to ground pounding in this current event. Basically in the Jaguar event that’s on now if you focus on air kills you’re running at a multiplier bracket lower than everyone else (so rank I-III AB you’re actually doing 0.7, as opposed to 0.8 in the New Years event). (Plus you may be paying more SL to change up battlepass tasks as the crit tasks are much harder and probably not worth it now.)

As I understand you’ll also get a better reward by doing severe damage to your target without killing it, then waiting a bit before finishing it, instead of simply killing it in one go. This is rewarding bad aiming. It’s amazing how they keep advertising this as something positive to the players.

[_Poul]

@sardinha08

As I understand you’ll also get a better reward by doing severe damage to your target without killing it, then waiting a bit before finishing it, instead of simply killing it in one go. This is rewarding bad aiming. It’s amazing how they keep advertising this as something positive to the players.

To be honest, it would be best to first severely damage the enemy and then to… leave him.

I know you risk 20% of rewards this way, but there are only two conditions for finishing that plane: killing the pilot or tearing off the tail. Both conditions are not that easy, especially when you have weak guns.

Wasting time and ammo for that 20% doesn’t really make sense, because in that time you could climb, gain some energy and attack another target for another 80% rewards.

And it’s not even guaranteed that when you leave severely damaged target, it will be finished by your teammates, as they will also have problem finishing him (they also have to meet one of these two kill conditions). So there is still a relatively high chance that this enemy will give you remaining 20% rewards, just delayed.

Because of all this, it wouldn’t even make sense to attack severely damaged planes for any other player as well. It will be much harder to finish this plane than to severely damage another plane. And for finishing you can only get 40% of rewards. So why would you waste your time, energy and ammo on severely damaged plane?

From what I see in battles, most players already ignore severely damaged planes in the current system, and they can still give you an assist (60% rewards).

The big problem is, how do you recognize severely damaged planes in the new system? In the current system it’s easy, they have grey nameplates. In the new system they will look the same as other planes.

[sardinha08]

@_Poul_

So there is still a relatively high chance that this enemy will give you remaining 20% rewards, just delayed.

If they end crashing or if the match ends will the one that did the severe damage receive those remaining 20% or just the “kill” in the stats?

@_Poul_

The big problem is, how do you recognize severely damaged planes in the new system? In the current system it’s easy, they have grey nameplates. In the new system they will look the same as other planes.

Most people will not realize they’ve wasted their time only to get a 40% reward, instead of a 100% reward for killing an undamaged target or the previous 60% of getting an assist, simply cause they cannot tell if the target is already severely damaged or not. In their stats all will look good cause they will get the kill but not in terms of rewards.

[_Poul]

@sardinha08

If they end crashing or if the match ends will the one that did the severe damage receive those remaining 20% or just the “kill” in the stats?

You will receive remaining 20% and a kill. That’s exactly why they kill all severely damaged planes at the end of the battle. These planes in the current system would already be dead.

There is only one negative situation for a player that caused a severe damage. If you severely damage an enemy and he will be able to land and repair. In the current system, you would receive a frag and 100% rewards anyway (because severe damage in the new system is a destruction in the previous system). In the new system you will receive 80% of rewards, but you won’t receive a frag and remaining 20% (because your target got repaired).
But this kind of situation is very rare. Almost always a severe damage is so serious that the enemy has no chance of landing anyway. I played thousands of battles in Air Arcade and I only managed to land literally a few times in a severe damage condition.

@sardinha08

Most people will only realize they’ve wasted their time only to get a 40% reward, instead of a 100% reward for killing an undamaged target or the previous 60% of getting an assist, simply cause they cannot tell if the target is already severely damaged or not. In their stats all will look good cause they will get the kill but not in terms of rewards.

Yeah, exactly. Like I said before, this new system will create many unclear situations, and at the same time, it won’t solve anything, it will only be more confusing. I seriously don’t understand why so many players are so happy about this new system.

[EL_X]

After reflecting on my last comments saying to “leave the current system”, i put more thought into why this system is beneficial and how it could help the current ecosystem of kill rewards and whatnot, im personally more comfortable with the system now.

however i do want to highlight some feedback i saw here and my own thoughts on it:

@Cpt_Bel_V

→ the defender might be able to land, and make his aircraft being repaired, alike the Israeli F-15D (loosing a wing) or the B-17 from Stigler’s story being completely torn off by bullets but still flown 600+km before landing

gaijin i think have said that if the aircraft lands the “pending kill” as its called gets taken away from the 1+1 back to 1 for example, that way things like that dont happen

@MajloActual

Minor nitpick:

I think the naming of all the new “Severe Damage” stuff should be refined.
Getting a pop up, even if it’s in the same color as “Aircraft Destroyed”, that just says “Severe Damage” does not give the same feeling as it should. It just feels like getting a critical hit, rather than what is practically a kill.

Severe Damage → Mission Kill
Severely damaged aircraft kill counted → Assist Counts as Kill
There are some other new messages as well, but I don’t remember exactly what they were, but they should be changed in the same spirit.

definately agree here, please find a way to make it shorter or at least ingame have it shorter than longer in the battle end summary

@Hartsy1

Does this affect ground combat in anyway i.e spaa player shreds a plane before the end of a match and its severely damaged before reaching an airfield would you be credited a kill at the end of the game???

definitely should have this addressed as well, SPAA need their fair share too :)

anyways, thank you gaijin for your solution and im excited to see if it works :D

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@EL_X

gaijin i think have said that if the aircraft lands the “pending kill” as its called gets taken away from the 1+1 back to 1 for example, that way things like that dont happen

what if you escaped, still the 25min timer hits,… no time to RTB even if you’re on a clear path,…

the problem is that the Pilot that Damaged is still UNABLE to confirm any kill,…

[MoRozdnikaya]

compared to present mechanics the reward in new mechanics is less, 80%+40% is less than killing’s 100% and Assistant’s 50%, so the severe damager should get 100% and the finisher should get 50%

[EL_X]

ah i see now, my bad, definately want that addressed

[Cepeleon]

So score wise, damaging a destroyer is worth 440 points total. The kill is worth 30, the assist 10. So if you did 95% of the damage, you made 428 points of score and the other player in this case made 52 from that kill. So we’re talking about 20 points of score you missed.

Except score is not used on challenges, kills are and so the points are meaningless when it comes to accomplishing tasks. Hence the need for this mechanic in Naval. Spending nearly 5 minutes swapping shells with a vessel, only for it to get sniped by a bot is not only irritating but time wasting.