i think Finish people would go berserk if their vehicles went under Russia given the two countries history the last 500 years. Sweden seems like they way more reasonably choice.
then why would the strv122b+ be under both since Sweden developed the upgrades for the Leopard 2A5 independently and Germany never used the tank with those upgrades.
BAE systems,
would their CV90 MK.IV be given to all 40 nations the company exists in, since its a prototype not currently being operated by any country but tested and prototyped (and to some extent subsidized) by 40 different ones?
and a new question:
if a nation designs a tank but does not use it, it gets added in WT and then a 2’nd country buys the tank. does the first country then get the tank removed since it was not a joint venture and the first country never operated the tank.
Hate to break it to you
But if you want to play those specific variants
Then play the nations they are in
Want EJ/EJ Kai? Play Japan
Want F-4F? Play Germany
Want FG.1/FGR.2? Play UK
Want A-4N Ayit? Play Israel
Seems like an absolutely awful proposition
What’s the point of playing the Israeli tech tree if the the US also gets the F-16I (just an example, we don’t even have it in game yet) with it’s indigenous armament?
Same goes for the F-15J or even the F-2
Gaijin should add vehicles, where they think they best fit, or where they think they are needed to fill lineups and improve gaps in techtrees, no matter who operated it, or built it, or helped build it. They should probably use such things as rough guidelines, but setting rules will just create complications, and there will be exceptions to the rules that cause problems. If they carry on doing what they are doing and go full steam ahead, all the minor nations will have much improved lineups sooner, and more interesting unique vehicles to get people to play them. They do not need to explan why x thing goes in x nation, because even if they do, people will always find problems with it on technicalities or in general. The truth is that everyone wants the new toys and the meta vehicles in the nations they play for example, all the german mains want the KF41 even though its not that good, but because its been masively overhyped and is the new posterboy for the update. They have added the KF41 to italy only, to get people to play the new hungarian subtree. it is that simple, no matter what comments Mike makes about it being because germany didnt operate it, it wasnt added to germany because then people wouldnt play the new subtree to get it. It will most certainly come to germany at some point, and it was most likely always planned to.
Right now it seems very likely that for whatever reason hungary will be the first buyer of the KF51, since they seem very intrested in it, that being said economicaly it looks bad to me since they just received multiple 2A7HU and the KF41, and immediatly getting KF51 Panthers on top of that seems excessive
I have an issue with the F-86K or the F-104G or F-104S going to USA. The USA NEVER USED these variants. They MIGHT have been manufactured in the USA, in whole or in part, but those versions were never a part of US equipment. The F-86D and F-86K have many similarities but the major glaring difference was armament. The F-86D used 2.75" FFAR and the F-86K used four 20mm cannon. Likewise, the F-104 G and S variants were much improved models but made AFTER the USA decided the F-104 was a dead-end project so USAF models stopped at the F-104C. Giving USA the F-104G and S models makes as much sense as making the S-199 a German product, despite Germany never having any influence in its design. The Czechs were forced to create it from Bf109 fuselages because there weren’t enough engines coming. France was supplied a lot of US equipment. Does that mean all that US equipment has to go back to the US? The US provided a lot of Lend Lease Corsairs, Hellcats, Wildcats (Martlets) and Avengers to the British Royal Navy. Do they have to be returned to the USA as well? What about the Catalina flying boats given to both UK and USSR? What about the SB2U Vindicators given to France and the UK? What about the Hawk 75’s given to France and later taken over by Germany (several of which made their way to Finland)?
Most certainly am I not assuming that they must all apply at once. Just that if one applies that it is followed and I showed that this is not the case. Making it not a rule but at best a “single instance” which is no different from “arbitrary allocation”
If that is true then the KF 41 should also go to germany as it also started with 0 customers and was already rejected for service in the Bundeswher prior to Hungary getting any form of contract. Or will the KF 51 be removed from germany after 3 years when lets say Italy buys and operates them?
They are about as similar as the Puma and Bradley…
The entire discussion can also only really apply to early variants as later models often take a split. Especially for planes. where the US might have variants A C D and E developed in the US and never used outside of it, but variant B is only used in germany and custom build for them and their specifications. And Germany then might have developed their own C2 and D2 variants based on their B version. In that case the US should not get version B C2 and D2 as “B” is already a german variation of the general model.
So if Hungary had bought a custom version of the KF 41, lets call it KF 41H it should not go to germany as at that point development would no longer be for germany but hungary and probably also under hungarian supervision. The base KF 41 was build for German and nato specs without catering to any special national needs. This H version would also not fall under the german laws requiring a re evaluation by the Bundeswehr as the new tech implemented would only consist of “old” tech or tech provided by hungary. So this H version would never fullfill the “tested” criteria.
This is the reason why I was and am opposed to having left the korean war era. Gameplay took a nose dive, capabilities are at best guess work and We are dealing with stuff which has barely left the drawing board.
But the KF-41 is already in service with Hungary by the time it was added to the game. What is your point here?
Who’s to say? The KF-51 isn’t in game yet so this is simply speculation built off of speculation and not particularly constructive to this conversation.
With what? The T1 and the Exelsior? You will need to look at those projects a bit more, the only relationship was the T1 suspension and track as a test on one of the Exelsiors. I cannot see any other relationship currently. Please provide me with a thread or documentation about it, I’m genuinely curious if there’s more to it. I’m not going to make if-then statements about every peculiarity with every vehicle addition, we’d be here for hundreds of responses.
The current consistency of Gaijin is better than the contradicting rules in this proposal.
No one can name hypocritical vehicle additions post-Covid, because guess what… they aren’t hypocritical.
F-16AJ is a YF-16 that was tested with AIM-7s that would become Block 15.
Yak-141 is a prototype consistent with Kikka, J7W1, XP-50, VB10-02, etc.
T-90S is consistent with Leo 1A5NO, SK105, etc.
KF-41 is consistent with EJ Kai, F-4F, Strv 122, etc.
Under the proposed new ruleset, USA would get F-4F & EJ Kai.
Germany would get Strv 122.
And so forth.
italy, sweden and spain basicaly joined the MGCS system development after germany threatend france to start a new project without france when they constantly made problems during the development. So all core central European members are collaborating in the new tank system, which already reduces potential buyers by a good bit
That if you believe that the KF 51 should go to germany right now while the Kf41 should not shows that you have 0 consistency in your arguments.
If your argumentr was consistent then either the KF 41 should also go to germany or the Kf 51 would need to be removed from germany once another nation decides to operate it.
Sorry I meant the T14 not the T1. My mistake. But the rest is correct. Developed by each nation, then fixed by the other and then re tested by both. So both the T14 and the Excelsior should be in both trees if we take prototype testing and development as a criteria.
As I said. And described. We are dealing with projects not even fully implemented and finished. KF 41 is still considered a late stage prototype with the first production run still seen as just a initial version already slated for upgrades. The PUMA just left this stage with the initial batch now being upgraded to the same standart as the second batch (which is not even under order right now)
We are literally trying to implement tanks which even the countries operating them have not fully figgured out what to do with and how powerful they are. Essentially all stats for post korean war vehicles we have are due to leaks, guess work and observation. So their very existance is against what this community always believes it stands for REALISM.
As it stands, only Germany has tested the KF 51. While Hungary is shown as an investor, they do not own or operate it currently. It doesn’t reasonably belong anywhere else. As I mentioned before, this is speculative on if it were introduced right now. It doesn’t mean it will get introduced soon or at all.
This is not the same with the KF 41, where at the time of introduction is used by Hungary. I have mentioned before that a prototype can be made for Germany. If Hungary did not exist, the KF 41 would have gone to Germany. There is no inconsistency.
There is another, I believe it is the M3 Grant, which has this peculiarity. I believe these tanks were added quite early in the game’s life but I need to confirm.
Countries absolutely know their vehicles better than we do. They make doctrines and strategy to leverage their advantages and exploit enemy weaknesses. The best that can be emulated is with publicly available data.
I should point out that while this game attempts to be as realistic as possible, there are still compromises made for gameplay. This affects vehicles even pre korean war. So modern tanks don’t necessarily break what is currently present.
There are inconsistencies. Argentina exists in the German tree and as Smin said previously, all Argentine vehicles are deployed in the German tree. With this logic, France should not have gotten the SK105 since:
It was not used/tested/made by France.
Argentina used it and already existed in the German tree
Whether or not you agree with France having it, it is already in the game. The exact same justification for France getting the SK105 can be used for Germany getting the KF41.
The Sk-105 is Austrian and Argentina also used this vehicle, so this argument is not as straightforward as you make it. You have what is basically a modified French AMX-13 turret with a French cannon slapped on an Austrian APC. Germany only gets it because Argentina uses it. Since Austria is not “assigned” to a nation, at least there’s enough justification to say France can also receive it. And before anyone says it, no, this is not another DF 105 situation. At the very least that tank is where it belongs since it was developed for Germany.
The KF 41 does not fall into this situation for this reason; Hungary exists as a subtree nation. If it didn’t exist, Germany would have the KF 41.