Yes, that is what I’m saying. France only got it because of a technical connection. The whole KF41 is German technology, not indigenously modified by Hungary in any way. Also it’s not specifically built for Hungary, it is an export vehicle just like the Challenger 2E.
The same argument of the “technical connection” can be used for Germany. I’m not asking for the “Hungarian” KF41, I’m asking for the Germany’s own KF41 (under the German flag) as showcased for export (again, like the Challenger 2E and MBT2000).
In relation to the Austrian SK105 in France, are you saying that in order for Germany to get a KF41, another non-designated nation needs to buy and use it?
If so, it doesn’t make any sense why Germany has to rely on another non-designated nation to purchase their export tank instead of Germany getting their own export showcase version.
This has also already been proven false as the MBT2000 (another export tank) was given to China under the PRC flag instead of a Pakistan/Bangladesh flag.
It always amuses me that the community that constantly pats itself on the back for being against “paper tanks” is so on board with the addition of vehicles that would require a security clearance to model even somewhat correctly. Just because they have skins of IRL vehicles does not make them any less paper vehicles.
Let us suppose Gaijin adds the KF51 to Germany now.
Then, a year from now, Hungary buys it (reportedly they are actually interested), so it goes into Hungarian service, but is still not in the Bundeswehr.
According to your standards, at that point the vehicle should be removed from the German tree, and go to the Italian tree exclusively. This would be consistent with the placement of the KF41. If you disagree that it should be removed in this hypothetical, then you’re contradicting your own stance on the KF41. Can’t have it both ways. Quite literally tertium non datur.
Personally, I feel the entire discussion is academic. Gaijin places vehicles where they need them to be, and everything else that comes after is a PR justification that we players could incorrectly extrapolate as a “rule” or “guideline”.
KF51 going to Germany is 100% consistent with KF41 not going to Germany.
Also no country other than Germany would purchase KF51 as 130mm isn’t likely to be implemented for at least a primary MBT.
We shall see on the KF51. I think there is a reasonable chance Hungary and Ukraine will be its first operators.
The Leopard 2A6 is a real tank. The Leopard 2A6 we have in game is something that looks like the Leopard 2A6, but is not a Leopard 2A6 performance wise, because there is no way to accurately model it without the appropriate security clearance (and even if you had one, you could not divulge that information for the purposes of a commercial game). That makes the Leopard 2A6 we have in game, a paper vehicle.
The difference with the Lynx and the the 2E is that the 2E didn’t have a customer. There are quite a few vehicles that fall under this category.
That would be the PUMA. The German army’s IFV is that vehicle specifically. The Lynx was intended for export and has a customer that’s represented in game.
I completely understand the point he’s trying to make. However it is pointless to discuss this with a vehicle not in game yet. There is no reason to.
Let’s talk about a tank that isn’t the Panther. One that is actually in the wrong tree that needs to be hidden. M4A4 (SA50) for France. More appropriately, the M50 Israeli Sherman. That tank needs to go to the correct tree. How I see that happening is just like the Israeli Vautour; hidden from France and placed to Israel. The process isn’t new. There is, again, no inconsistency in my stance.
The kf41 didnt have a customer until it did. Whats your point? It wasnt designed for hungary it was designed as an export vehicle. Are you really saying your issue with germany getting the kf41 is that hungary is already in the game? What if germany had gotten the kf41 3 updates ago?
Also germany could get the german army tech demonstrator, or the kf31, or the greek kf41. Gaijin themselves said hungary doesnt rule out other versions of the kf41 that arent the exact production version hungary uses.
Also germany could get the marder 2 which would be a far better addition than the kf41 because the marder 2 is just 2 cool. Or the boxer.
It’s a good idea but the, if the nation is not in game it should go to the closest nation. That doesn’t make sense as pretty much any vehicle able to be added will either have a connection to some nation in game or be based off of a vehicle in game. Otherwise we’ll get situations such as the hunter for Germany.
I have stated, repeatedly, that the KF41 when introduced to this game had Hungary as an operator. I have also said at least twice there would be no problems if Germany received a prototype KF 41. I’m not going to answer the “what if” question, as that is not pertinent.
Germany uses the PUMA as their IFV. They have their own doctrine and design choices with it versus the export oriented Lynx. This is like saying the U.S. should also get the Kurnass 2000 that Israel has. Is it an American aircraft? Certainly. However, it was modified for the customer that is Israel.
Not in the described scenario. better read before you post. Again. If the KF 51 goes to germany now but is later bought by Hungary it would need to be removed from the german tree at that point to remain consistent with the KF 41. That is the whole point. So either germany can not get the KF 51/41 or it can. Giving germany the KF 51 but not the 41 is utterly inconsistent and senseless as both vehicles are the same regarding service, development and testing. And in a year or two maybe even in countries using it.
Hungary is literally already discussing buying it so wtf are you on about.
No that is absolutely not the case. Like that is so wrong it hurts.
The Lynx was considered by the German army instead of buying the second batch of the PUMA. They are not the same vehicle, they only serve a similar purpose. In thge end it was decided to just go with the PUMA and not also add the Lynx as the increase in mobility was not worth the extra logistics needed. But the PUMA and Lynx whjere considered to both serve at the same time.
It is forbidden under german law to produce vehicles exclusively for export. There can only ever be export variants. Again showing how little you know.
Then don`t fucking bring it up as an example. Like wtf. You started this thing. You lost the argument so now you blame me? What kind of childish behaviour is this. YOU USED THE KF 51 AS THE EXAMPLE AND I DISPROVED YOUR EXAMPLE SO DEAL WITH IT.
where? You literally disagreed with me stating such on every occasion I brought it up and also did with others bringing it up. Are you aware of what you are writing?
Again you show taht you did not even bother reading what I wrote. Because that is a point I made at the very beginning. Custumisation matters, but base is base. So by your own logic the US should not get the F4E because Israel got a custom version.
Like I do not get you. Everyone already said that if anything design nations shoudl get the base model and not the custom models, you disagreed with them. Now you make the exact same point and now it is correct?
Not under Gaijin’s system. There are currently no examples of vehicles under such scenario, and that scenario is different to all other scenarios previously.
Response 36, response 71 is the second time, so I had mis-remembered.
Even though the F-4E was in use and serviced by the USAF and the Lynx is not in operational service with Germany’s army? This is a logical fallacy and doesn’t disprove my argument.
-I had brought up the KF 51 only after someone else had mentioned it.
-The PUMA is currently what Germany uses operationally. They had planned to use the Lynx, but as you have stated decided against it. This supports adding a prototype at most. I may have mispoke about the intention of the project, so I admit fault about that.
I would also appreciate if you tone down the childish behavior, as it is distracting and quite rude.
I like the mix and match they do now. Too many rules makes it too predictable and too unbalanced.
Sure there are ways to make it fit but what you’re missing is developer priorities. They’ll have more freedom to work on things if they can fill gaps when they can copy most of a model from nation 1, slap on a skin of nation 2 and then add to nation 3. Way more efficient than making a whole new unique model for nation 3 which would delay the gap getting filled. Only general rule I care about is if it “sorta fits”. An Indian tank to UK because the historical ties or a Swedish Hunter for Germany due to strong cultural overlap and that they are neighbours is all fine for me.
i understand what you mean but like i said, my proposed policy applies to INDEPENDENT Tech trees. finland, is, IRL, and independent nation and should be like that in Warthunder as well.
if they dont share all their vehicles with one nation and have to be split across multiple tech trees to ensure immersion and historical accuracy, so be it.
yet they had a russian tank in their army. meaning they cannot deny that they had a russian designed and produced vehicle. its silly to argue that they dont like russia and so wouldnt like too have their RUSSIAN tank in the russian tech tree. if we accept your logic, they shouldnt like the t72m1 to begin with as it is a russian tank.
germany never used it yes. but germany was involved with the upgrades. Krauss maffei (a german military company) was the provider.
is BAE not an originally british company. nevertheless, the nation where the compant holds its headquarters is the main country of origin. despite its multinational status. and BAE headquarters is in London, UK.
this is already a listed point in the main post. the country of the vehicles design, as far as tanks are concerned, holds a rightful claim to its use.
here is my quote:
people actually have lives to live.
and im not going to grind out every nation to play a singular vehicle type.
your logic is flawed and harbours on laziness more than anything.
this is a glaring issue with people here. they havent read my points fully.
let me present a respectable analogy.
you design a vehicle. but you sell the production ones to someone else.
YOU still hold the rights to the vehicle because YOU DESIGNED it. it is YOURS by right of origin.
no matter if you use it or not.
it is another matter if you sell the design completely in which case you lose the right to it but the USA did not sell the design nor the rights of the f-86 variants.
germans did not design it. did not use it. so they dont get it.
It is, for all intents and purposes, a reverse engineered bf-109, just like the j-7 is a reverse engineered mig-21 or the r-3s is a reverse engineered aim9-b.