Wait, why does this need to have 260 Replies…cupola shots happen in real life. Just use a decoration or bush to hide your cupola.
I use bushes to become one with the bushes:
Spoiler
Someone get a mod to lock this down now.
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Absolutely accurate with in game protection analysis using the Panther G, and the 88mm of the Jagdpanther. The round goes into the cupola, impacts the rear surface of the cupola and detonates into the crew compartment.
The second picture shows a shot from the Maus, which has much more penetration than the Jagdpanther’s 88m. It will pass through the cupola unhindered and undetonated.
Point goes to @FlipallTheTables for using physics to explain things.
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Yes please. I thought this thread was dead and buried when OP got a forum suspension
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Hopefully cupola shots will become a thing of the past once APHE gets rightfully nerfed this summer according to the roadmap. It’s long overdue. Most real penetrations would rip the thing off the tank.
Now if a derp artillery piece shoots a 120mm+ shell at a cupola and it sprays through the roof, yeah that makes sense.
It will be up to player vote, so it is not guaranteed to happen.
People advocating for a nerf to APHE do seem more numerous, but a lot of that can be simply attributed to them being more vocal. People that like APHE as is do not have anything to complain about, therefore they don’t complain about it, and don’t talk about it nearly as much.
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Indeed, I hope that APHE gets nerfed to historical levels (slightly better than solid AP of the same caliber).
The number of problems ingame such a change would fix would be enormous.
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Cupola shots
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MG port shots
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Magikbounce™ shots barely scraping something and instantly nuking the tank (Churchill turret roof, angling Churchill hull and shell slipped through gap in front tracks, I could name many other examples)
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Many tanks overtiered due to APHE being what it is could plummet in BR (IS-2s, T32s, Super Pershing, Jumbos, Italian TDs, there are many examples)
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The IS-2’s APHE is so powerful that it is modeled to deal overpressure damage. Changing the shrapnel generation wouldn’t change much as the 122 mm rounds would still one shot. The same thing applies to the Italian tank destroyers, those with 75 mm and 105 mm cannons.
Also those tanks aren’t overtiered, precisely because APHE is so powerful. If APHE got reworked and they stayed at the same BR, then they would be likely overtiered (although I disagree with stuff such as the Super Pershing).
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I’m referring to cases like the 75/46 M43, which should be the same as its German tree counterpart the StuG III G. Painfully thin lower plate counters any real “strength” of its supposed “armor,” as does of course barrel damage.
And as far as I know, rounds with 170g or more explosive mass deal overpressure when they penetrate. The 122mm BR-471 & BR-471B have 160g explosive mass, so not quite enough. BR-471D has less, around 125g. BR-472 on the T-10M is similar to D, and even the IS-7/279 130mm doesn’t have enough explosive mass to overpressure.
It’s TNT equivalent that matters, not the explosive filler itself (Edit: and keep in mind this is only for APHE rounds).
That said, all the rounds you mentioned have over 170 grams of TNTe, and they all overpressure.
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Does the wiki actually confirm that it’s TNTe and not explosive mass?
The wiki doesn’t mention it, but there is this developper response, kindly provided by TrickZZter.
Additionally, datamines confirm that those rounds get overpressure.
If you want to test it out for yourself you can use protection analysis. If the crew is dead before any shrapnel hits them, that indicates overpressure.
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I’ve voiced this opinion before, but I don’t want APHE nerfed, even if it would be historical. Having played many tanks at WW2 tier with only solid shot or similarly low damage projectiles, the last thing I want in more of that. And it’s lose/lose in my opinion too, because as much as it’s not great having to play whackamole with enemy crewmembers, it’s not much better to be sitting somewhere, disabled, but forced to wait while your opponent slowly finishes you off, with no ability to defend yourself or having any hope of survival. It’s far preferable to just be finished off in one shot so I can get into my next tank quicker and move on.
And, despite being unhistorical, it also results in a more historical game, funnily enough. Tank crews generally don’t remain inside their tanks after they take a hit, especially if said hit liquifies one or more of their number or causes critical damage. So, by making APHE more powerful than it is in real life, we get more onshot kills, which is more in keeping with real life.
Ultimately, if anything, I want solid shot to be ahistorically buffed up to a similar level of overperformance as APHE. That way we aren’t kneecaping nations that made the conscious decision to drop APHE for the faults that aren’t implemented in game, and go for solid shot instead, which has none of it’s relative advantages depicted in game.
Same.
I’d rather have a buff to solid shot rather than messing with APHE which could cause balance issues and general annoyance.
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Or better yet, nerf APHE to what it really was (slightly better solid shot) and then increase solid shot, APCR, APDS, HEAT, HEATFS, and smaller-sized APFSDS postpen.
Things like 17-pdr solid shot work quite well. It’s a good benchmark of how all ammo types should work upon penetration.
APHE being like what it is allows so many utterly BS killshots that you really have no excuse for, and inflates the stats (and therefore BRs) of vehicles which heavily rely on that.
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Why the heck is this in RB section and not Machinery/Ground?
Without the cupola will the crew not then be exposed to HE on the roof?
Cause they were complaining about it in the context of ground RB.
Though this aspect I would say covers the vehicle (same in both modes but not pen marker or speed/manoeuvrability) not the mode.
I blocked him a long time back so it hidden to me.
Counterpoint, APHE allows usage of weakspots that reward tank knowledge and allow tanks to be placed at BRs where their arrmor can work without it being an overwhelming, uncounterable advantage.
Tanks without said weakspots to exploit end up with the worst balancing issues. Tanks like the IS-3/4M and the T32E1 end up at super inflated BRs where their armor cannot work consistently due to APDS/HEAT, but at the same time cannot be lowered as their armor is near 100% resistant to everything but those rounds. I don’t want more armored tanks to be put into that catch 22.
Sure, playing around a weakspot can be annoying, doubly so if it’s impossible to get a shot without exposing it, but at the same time there are steps you can take to mitigate it. Staying moving and at distance makes the shot much harder for the average player, as well as baiting shots off an angled hull, or simply getting the drop on players.
Armor isn’t supposed to make you 100% immune to incoming fire, its role is to slow down the time it takes for an enemy to take a shot that will hurt you, giving you more time to hit them first.
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We already have the replacement for all the postwar light tanks with HEAT/sabot.
It’s called M109 & Co.
It feels more fair to be killed by that than a go-kart with a HEAT rocket launcher.
There are some machines which should be immune to most incoming fire except for derp artillery like M109s. Those which trade all their mobility for additional armor, regardless of firepower.
I would also go so far as to remove barrel damage (at least frontally when you’re pointing it at someone) to make heavy life easier. There are too many options available currently to make armor irrelevant.