Okay, so a Panzer 2 fighting an IS-4 is balanced? Or don’t go that high, what about a KV-1? A T-34? Because they actually met on the battlefield. I am not even saying a Panzer 4 with the short gun, because they meet in game too, and guess what happens? The Panzer dies.
Oh, do you want another example? Sure, here you go:
The french H-39 was used by israel. In. The. Cold. War.
The H-39 that is utterly useless agains INTERWAR tanks.
Oooohohoooo, there is more.
Panzer 4 was used by Syria, so it must see cold war tanks too.
And then, what you have said would make prototypes, or tanks that never fough literally unplayable. Literally. They were never used, so they can only fight the dust that falls onto them.
Even if you put them into their era, what about the Concept 3?
You know a big, slow car from the mid '70 with the gun of a Comet…
Do you think it would be fair for it to go against an Abrams?
BRUH bro.
So in real life a crew can repair a tank’s track from the inside of the tank in 15s?
Or casually swap a new engine?
Did the Sturmtiger reload in 40s? I don’t think so.
This game is barely “realistic” at all. Why?
Because then it would be unplayable.
Dude, literally any tank can farm those tanks with ease, due to them being played mostly by wehraboos.
I could bring up a Stuart and have positive K/D against 5.0-7.0 germany, the players at that range are just braindead.
You got it backwards. Realism is (or can be) important, but it also has to be reasonable.
Again, just watch Spookston’s historically accurate series. I don’t think you would be happy if your tank just randomly explodes, because in real life it used to sometimes.
Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIZjG8LXADktPFu_kAPK4xo_WbHTDhg4a
Obviously, armor is not the only contribution factor, it’s armor, crew, and most importantly, its gun. If it has 0 armor but can pen anything, that is a top their vehicle, I.e. the Ct-Cv 105 HP, it’s fast, mobile, has a stabilizer, has a good reload, good penetration, but can be penetrated by a .50 BMG. The Puma has good pen (for its BR), great speed, decent penetration(for its BR), and no armor. The M-51, okay armor, no stabilizer, good pen(for its BR), and no mobility, I don’t know your issue with this where it is, it can penetrate everything at its BR, and vice versa. I got into a snipe off with one at 1.6 Km, he narrowly missed every shot short, I shot 3 times 2 times missed, and I 1 shot him, it’s got no ranged capabilities at that BR, and no armor. You have to be mentally numb to think it’s at a bad BR and on top of that, not be able to take it out if that’s your issue. If the issue is that fighting WWII tanks, that’s cool, I agree, they should implement two modes where it’s solely WWII/Interwar and one that’s solely Cold War/Modern, I see no issue with that, we have these separations in Sim Battles.
My issue is equal or worst tanks are in higher BRs so i dont undertand why this is so low. This thing can one shot T-54s and is facing KVs and Tigers, is retarded, basically no lineup and the most of the time is teamed with incompetent allies teams is only barrier for another stupid op tank.
6.3/6.7 is his BR in other case just move down all the others HEAT/HEATFS tanks.
Like I said, make a generationaly separated battle mode/modes. WWII/Interwar, and Cold War/Modern, all it takes is some changes, it’s BR isn’t the thing you’re mad about, it’s the vehicles it’s facing. Historically speaking, no it shouldn’t face Tiger II’s or KV, although I’ve never seen a KV at this BR, only Tiger II and IS-2’s
While i completly agree with you, but this one is just dumb. Tanks like T29/30/34, T28/95, Maus, E-100, IS-3/4/6 are WWII, and even the IS-7 could be potentiall from there. Do you think it is fair for those to fight Tiger 2s, Pershings, etc? And those are just the better ones. What about normal Tiger, Panthers, Shermans…
Historical MM is just dumb, and people should forget about it.
That’s what I was saying, do you want a historically appealing opposition, or do you want a decent fight. If they could find a way to historically match make and keep BR ranges realistic and together.
It still would not make any sense. What could counter an IS-4? Or IS-3? The german 128mm struggles against them, and now consider it from the point of the average german main with 1 working braincell…
On the other hand, there is a competent Maus player will do the same to the others.
And then what about cold war tanks that are very low?
Have you seen low tier sweden?
A third of their tanks bellow 4.7 are from cold war. So now they won’t even see battles? I dont get how would you balance it…
Idk either, but I know about the Swedish, that’s why they have Sabot rounds, but I honestly don’t know, the only reason I say this is because the Strv 103 C would devastate everything in its BR bracket at that time period. It’s realistic right if that’s what they want, bring it back as an optional mode and see them flee back to AB/RB soon after getting demolished by these weapons.
No. The tanks themselves are from cold war. All the Pvkvs, the Ikv 103, Even the Sherman and Comet was bought AFTER the war ended.
On the note of the 37mm APDS, yes, it is cold war too, but those are just plain useless after they nerfed APDS.
Also, israel used H-39 tanks in dthe cold war. You know, that tank is useless agains interwar tanks, but then it should face T-55s. Great.
It reliably one shots both. It’s just that many WT players - not just German mains - dislike the armour meta and having to memorise where to pen what.
The 128mm is one of my favourite guns in the game. If yoy learn to use it with precision, it’s insanely strong. Treat it right and it will serve you right.
It also has the zoom to facilitate said precision. I think most players who use the JT don’t even know it has commander’s sight and you can use it for gun-laying. That really allows for surgical pixel hunting in the right situations.
EDIT: obviously that was not meant to refute your wider point. As you can see from my earlier comments, I also don’t think historical mm fits in War Thunder.
The only issue is that you are in that 0.0000000000001% of the germany player who has more than 2 braincells. I mean that is not an issue, it is a good thing.
The issue is that those ramaining 99.9999999999999% of germany players collectively share 1 braincell, and you can give them a bloody nuke, and they will still fail to kill a Hellcat.
They sit all day watching “History” Channel telling them that the Tiger 1 was never penetrated frontally, and that it is better than any MBT in the world (I am not joking, i know someone who actually thinks this, tho the History Channel part was later added by me, but after Ancient Aliens, i actually think they will pull off something like that someday)
Btw, can you tell me why do wehraboos pop smoke right after they spawn at the start of the battle? Like they aren’t even on a map where you can shoot from spawn to spawn.
Do you (or anybody) have an explanition for this behaviour? xd
I mean this:
They are the same! After all only the gun matters in this game.
Let’s just ignore that the AMX has a 20mm, really good mobility, and actually troll armor…
This dude actually needs help, i think.
I know you are exaggerating for emphasis, but to discuss this seriously, I think this is one case in which the meme is highly overstated compared to reality.
I’ll ignore Thunderskill (since it is very unreliable for global data) and talk about my own anecdotal experience with the game.
My win rate in ground RB for the last few months has been positive, as I’ve gotten to a point where I think I’m a decent, broadly average player. Why is this relevant to this discussion? I bring this up because in GRB, unless you’re one of those Very Good players, you’re not going to just reliably carry 15 other people.
I only play Germany, which also often plays alone on its own team due to how many players queue up with it. If so many of them were really so terrible, I would not be on the winning side of a match more than 50% of the time. Even if I was very good.
Of course there are matches where I can see that I made a critical difference. Dropping a nuke with the JT, for example, but other things too. I had a 5.0 Battle match on Abandoned Factory recently where I got 16 kills and basically cleared our cap that was being taken by the enemy, I was quite proud of turning that game into a win. But these are the exception, and you can’t substitute yourself for an entire team.
In my opinion based on my thousands of battles with German team mates, there are four macro categories of German mains in GRB.
1 - inexperienced players grinding through the tree, like I was. Especially bad are those that go straight from Pz III M to Tiger H1 (I thankfully did not do this). Germany has more players of this type than other nations due to the obvious reasons.
2 - history channel Wehraboos as you correctly ID them. Press W, don’t angle, don’t learn weak spots, die. Repeat.
3 - recovering Wehraboos. Having experienced the fragility of their machines, they course-correct too far in the opposite direction and never venture forward again. They sit in the same spot on the map and snipe in Tigers. Some think they’re Michael Wittmann reborn, others have read the game wiki which at basically every German tank past the low BRs says “engage at long range if possible!” and have taken it to heart.
4 - those trying to get better. I’m very much in this category.
I’ve seen others do it as well, and I can’t really explain it. I mean, why do people spray machine guns? Or fire the main gun? In spawn, which is bad enough, but even approaching contact, which can get you killed because of their stupidity. That is completely mystifying to me. Literal thoughtless button mashing.
I think the most annoying thing I experience is when I’m, for example, in a 5.7 full uptier and see the few downtiered guys on my team, misusing their Tiger II or their Jagdtiger, while we “grunts” have to do the hard work. There are several incredibly good vehicles in the German tech tree (much better than they were IRL, though that goes for many other nations in game too) that are completely wasted in the hands of bad players.
The JT in particular I just find personally offensive. In some matches that will be the only gun on the German team that can reliably deal with some strong enemy armour and you’ll see them taking pot shots at the UFP of an IS-3 and just slam your face against the desk in frustration.
This is a gun that allows you to do this. If only more players knew how to use it…
People in general are pretty bad, though no one has any clue which nation takes the cake (surely one of the big three).
I’m amazed how so many of them won’t spend half an hour to study the tanks they could go against, it’s so easy to do yet so beneficial. Also, in late game, loads of people love to rush right into enemy’s spawn without a real reason, instead of just sitting down and defending a cap.
Currently I’m playing 9.0 US and there’s something peculiar I love to do with my M60 TTS. When I’m in a faceoff with someone, I might turn on my ESS and use thermals to see through it, you’ll be amazed how many people fall for that and push me thinking they’ll pop a shot at me for free through the smoke, especially if I got strafed by a plane moments before.
But I guess it’s too hard to learn the fact that thermals can see through ESS and also learn which tanks in your BR range have thermals to begin with.
Of course i was exaggerating, but it is always funny to make fun of the average german main.
My story is a bit different. I play Arcade only (for several reasons), and there you get all nations mixed in both teams.
Now i was grinding BP missions/events with 4.0 china (basically the most OP setup for rank 3, you have an M4A1 75w, the strong turreted M4A1 with the 75mm, there are 2 M4A4s (1 premium , 1 tech tree), a T-34 ('43). i use these, but there is also an M10, and an M24), and i very often see Pz 4s (any version), and literally 95% of the time they can’t even pen me at close range while i am playing with my brain turned off, like i am playing with an Obj 279 after the previous BR changes.
So a week or so ago i heared that the Maus can be researched, but i need rank 5 open. Now the last time i have played germany was after Ground came out. So what? 2015 or 16? A long time ago. Back then i got to the Panther D, Tiger H1, and E, and others at lower BRs. So since then a lot of tanks got added i had to get tanks before. I just started spading all of them, so i get some additional RP too.
Now i’hve to to the long barrel Pz 4s (G, J, H), and i thought, they were going to be a pain to play. I based this on my previous encounters with those tanks.
But then, when i started to play with those, they were just awesome. A very pleasent experience, i’ve had a few 16-17 kill games.
I of course could not play them like a T-34 or a Sherman, but they were very effective.
With the 4J, i played 18 games, with 81% win rate, 77 kills with 13 deaths.
That was the only new tank, i have already played with the others (H, G and F2).
I was also suprized that my K/d was actually good with the F2 back then (409 kills for 161 deaths).
In fact most of my old stats with those were OK or even good, considering that i was way younger and had 20 fps at full low xd.
Also, with the Panther G, i am at 38 deaths, and 171 kills with 80% wr.
This suprized me for the other reason.
While i liked the Pz 4s, despite them not being in my playstyle, i outright dislike/hate Panthers.
The main reason is the bad reverse, and pathetic damage.
I rather aim at a weak spot with the Tiger, knowing that it will be 1shotted, and then on top of that having the ability to retreat is just much more important for me.
Also the Tigers, especially the E version are really good in hulldown, while the panther has no turret armor, except the occasional black hole event on the mantlet xd.
What i wanted to get out of all of this is that in my experience, germany players are really bad, to the point that they made me believe that german tanks are bad, while they are great.
I also like it when CCs make fun of them, especially Spookston.
Like i can’t even count how many times did a german tank just drive out in front of me not realizin that i was there.
And on the other hand, as you said, there is the good germany player who kills half of your team. But they are just very rare, in arcade at least.
Sorry for this long tangent, i just can’t explain myself in a shorter text sometimes.
When will the community be rid of using historical accuracy as a measure for determining vehicle BR? Sure, Germany didn’t have to fight M-51’s, but they also couldn’t field legions of Tiger II’s with working transmissions. Almost every tank in the game has multiple concessions made so that the history of the vehicle doesn’t get in the way of the gameplay.
Figuring out little tricks like these is always a great feeling. An example I always bring up is the Porsche Tiger Befehlswagen at 5.7. Especially now that the Tiger H1 is also 5.7, if you bush the Bfw up correctly, it looks like a Tiger H1 to the inexperienced eye. You don’t know how many times an enemy player will see me, think “omg unangled Tiger, average German main moment” and shoots me in the UFP doing no damage; and of course then you can retreat from the engagement at -35km/h, which looks just comical.
Don’t worry, I suffer from the same pathology. My crippling ADHD is clearly the primary reason why I’m obsessed with this game.
You play AB and I RB, so there is going to be limited applicability of advice, but still, I’m happy to provide starter tips for the Maus if you’re interested. I think it’s an excellent tank, even though most people disagree. It requires a peculiar playstyle to make it work, but it’s one of my favourite vehicles in the game.
Also, in case you’re looking for premiums to boost your research in this tree: the KWI - C is a beast of a machine that benefits from what I can only call Molotov-Ribbentrop bias, and complements the VK3002 extremely well at 5.0. The premium Jagdpanther is also an absolute money printer. And Tiger II Sla, well, if you’ve watched Spookston’s video on it recently, that’s all you need to know…
Great reload, great gun, great ballistic properties. They’re mostly glass cannons, which I suspect is what gets so many of their inexperienced players killed so often. Mentally speaking I just play them like they were open-tops or something, and that “never, ever be hit” mindset really helps to maximise their potential.
Turret armour is indeed always more important than hull armour. That said, Germany isn’t the “armour” tech tree anyway, so it’s fine. While this is, again, speaking from an RB perspective, I’ll still share my thoughts - the way I look at it is that tech tree Tiger Is are mediums, and Panthers are false mediums: they are in fact tank destroyers instead.
The Panther has the mobility to get you to a good spot early, from where you can engage. At a distance, your frontal hull armour becomes a lot more relevant, as it’s harder (especially for tanks with bad optics and/or ballistics) to pixel hunt your turret armour instead.
That’s also where the trade-off of its gun begins to pay off. Like you said, the Panther sacrifices explosive filler, so getting kills with one hit is harder, and that can be a real constraint because I only bring 19 rounds of ammo in Panthers to minimise their ammo rack risk. But the positive side of the tradeoff is the outright penetration of the gun, which pens as much as 1000 metres, as a Tiger pens point blank.
That can be very, very powerful. It allows you to exploit the combination of great frontal hull armour and high-penetration gun into one package.
However, Tigers are much better all-rounders, because with a Panther, if you go brawl for a cap, all your advantages disappear. Extra penetration doesn’t matter anymore, because point blank everyone can pen everybody else. Frontall hull armour becomes irrelevant because nobody who knows what they’re doing will bother to shoot it.
What matters in CQC is to have fast gun-laying, fast reaction time to fire, and one-shot potential. You need good turret traverse, or good hull traverse. Panthers have better turret traverse than Tigers, but a Tiger can hull traverse while angling in the process, greatly increasing its survivability in this situation. Then you need good one-shot potential, and again here Tigers trump Panthers. Good acceleration to get to cover quickly, and the Panthers’ is sluggish. And good reverse to shoot and scoot, to which I’ll just say, lmao.
Tigers are still competent long range, so they are more versatile, and I always take them if I know I’m going to be slugging it out up close, but the Panthers are very effective within their niche.
One Panther I want to single out is the VK3002 at 5.0.
It is less armoured than all other Panthers, but also much faster. Recently someone on the forums recommended to use it as Germany’s “ersatz light tank” at BRs above 5.0 and lower than 6.7 (where the LeKPanzer sits). I’ve tried following that advice and was amazed at the result. I often play with a friend of mine who’s grinding Italy, and when they spawn in the M18 (so we’re playing 5.7) I’ll often spawn the VK3002 and flank with them, and… wow. It works.
Here’s a good example of us causing a little bit of mayhem, just to give an idea of what I mean.
My stubborn determination to master the entire German ground tech tree (well, up to 7.7 anyway) has taught me that people are completely sleeping on some machines, they’re very underrated. I’ve lost count of how many 10-kill games I’ve had by spawning the Dicker Max in 5.7 or 6.7 or even 7.7 matches, for example.
