Similar or even worst tanks was moved up so this thing need follow the same path. His fire power is insane for his BR, there is not a single reason for leave this tank in 6.0. Is like the Object 120 in 7.3, easy to kill? yes, but his power was insane and completely overpowered for 7.3 thats why right now is 8.0.
M-51 need go up and pretty sure in the upcomming BR changes he probably do.
Nashorn with KwK 43 is on 5.3 where it can oneshot anybody and nobody see any problem, it’s normal for SPG to have overwhelming firepower for its BR.
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German main does not want non-German vehicle to move up.
That’s impossible, I think this will fry their brains lmao.
Object 120 is also much faster than M-51.
Also, the damage and ballistics between 120’s dart and M-51’s HEAT is incomparable.
M-51 could go to 6.3, it wouldn’t change much and it might satisfy people like you.
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I love the Jagdpanther and play against these, when you play against it, it’s a glass cannon, it may have good penetration, but like 57.4 mm of frontal armor, just fire first and be aware of your situation. I commonly kill these with even the Sd.Kfz 243 PUMA. I honestly thing the only thing that is similar to it’s power is at 7.7, because it has a LRF, this being the IKV 91, it’s got a higher velocity, a LRF, and commander optics. The M-51 has none of these. It’s doesn’t make sense to move it there and be in a league with the IKV 91 or even the strv 103
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I live to defy stereotypes. :D
And I’m not just talking about being “a German main who can aim” and other in-game things like that, but I also have this radical idea that the game should be fair and fun for all and that we’re all here to have a good time with each other… otherwise, what’s the point? Life is difficult enough as it is out there. Being nasty in our free time too just feels masochistic.
And you’ll never play Obj 120 on a level 1 crew unless you somehow decide to buy that as your first premium and have your literal first experience with the game.
Especially over long distances, the ballistics of the Obj are out of this world. The M-51 has to play as a sniper while having a shell that’s not particularly fast.
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Not to mention the velocity is middlin, the HEAT isn’t FS and the postpen is very unreliable.
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Loads of people in here simply ask for too much.
Like in that other thread where some people complained how Leopard I doesn’t belong to 8.0, because it isn’t outright the best 8.0 vehicle, which is absurd if you ask me.
And in the end, it’s nothing more than a HEAT shell, which will detonate on bushes on fences, further increasing things you’ll have to watch for.
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Im not comparing both vehicle perform just saying both are similar cases where people say they should stay in lower BR for similar reasons.
That’s exactly my point. War Thunder is immersive and feels authentic, while still being a regular game you can play without preparations. Sacrifices are made for the accessibility, but realism is kept where it can be.
I have no problem with controls being mouse aim or alt history for some diversity, but vehicles that are 20 years apart fighting each other is ridiculous, especially that particular 20 years from 1940s to 1960s is huge.
I do have a problem with that. Ikv at 4.0 with 400mm heat is even more absurd, but this thread is about m51. I also know panzer 4h and pumas would be much higher and i want them to be much higher, the same as m24 (which i love, but it’s digusting, a 1944 light tank at 3.7), but again this thread is about m51. Also m51 is more absurd at 6.0 than m24 or a puma at their brs, because m51 is from a completely different generation. Imagine a gen 3 jet fighting a gen 1 jet. Even if said gen 3 jet is very bad, it’s still ridiculous.
Almost all brs now are a shitshow.
Not in lineups, that is exactly the point.
LeKPanzers entered service in 1956. Jagdpanzerkanonens are from the 60s and they only sit 0.3 BRs above the M-51, while also having an amazing round (HEAT-FS too, even if it has lower pen) and much better mobility.
We have postwar AAs at almost every WW2 BR, and Sweden in particular is a festival of cold war tanks in WW2 BRs.There is nothing authentic about going into battle in a Tiger H1, and finding a Strv 74 on the enemy team. In the next update we Germans are getting the short barreled M109 at 6.0, same lineup as the Tiger E and three Panthers.
Immersion has left the building a long time ago.
It’s a Sherman hull with a derp cannon.
Consider this thought experiment. Imagine that while they were putting their improv armies together by salvaging parts from the scrapyard, the Israelis had made an M-51 that kept the same hull, but instead of the 105mm, it had the KwK 43. Would you consider it “different generation” as well, at that point?
Because here is the thing. A penetration is a penetration. Doesn’t matter if it happens by 5mm or 200mm. The KwK 43 will pen most things it meets at its BR without breaking a sweat; will have a higher shot velocity compared to the 105mm; won’t have to worry about fences and bushes; and will usually one-hit-kill everything it pens.
You will need to memorise weak spots for several opponents, but on the other hand when you use HEAT, you have to memorise crew and ammo location because postpen damage is terrible.
You are getting hung up on the “400mm” value, which might be relevant if you go around in a tank that has 395mm of armour… which nobody has at 6.0.
The JPzK pens 300mm at 6.3, and the round is much faster, being fin-stabilised. Is that “next gen” too?
Do you know what actual next gen is from WW2? Tanks that have good frontal protection without sacrificing mobility (or as they are frequently called, main battle tanks) and sub-calibre, high velocity ammo.
The M-51 has neither. It has a 3.7 hull and a 7.7 gun (I have DF105 in mind). Do the math, add in the fact you’ll start playing it with lvl1 crew, and tell me 6.0 is unfair.
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It’s just not true. Do people play a sturmtiger because it’s competetive or because it’s goofy? Not all tanks have to be state of the art, but history should decide which ones are and which aren’t, not player’s stats.
Yes, but as long as it’s historical i have no problem with it.
Don’t lecture me, i know what i’m doing wrong. I meant that even though i know it, i refuse to accept it. I don’t like adapting to something made up.
I know, but that’s the thing. I do not get killed by 17 pounders, because no one plays them, everyone plays m51, because it has 400mm of pen and 200mm at 60 degrees. I would have no problem with getting killed by 17 pounders (as long as it’s not literally the only thing i will meet, 17 pounder is an answer to german cats, not a parallel design).
The Sturmtiger is not a tech tree vehicle, precisely because it’s goofy.
Although, with that said, it’s not true at all that it’s not a competitive vehicle. It’s just that people don’t bother to learn to play it.
Give it to a player who knows how to use it, and they can dominate a match.
Historical matchmaking might work in a different game, but not in WT, not without majorly redesigning the game virtually from scratch.
I’m in no position to lecture anyone; merely to offer advice based on my own experience in game.
The M-51 is only one of many things that can kill you. Good news is, you can kill it too.
And it’s not “made up”, any more than the rest of the vehicles are in this game anyway.
Really? Everyone?
When I have Israel on my or the enemy team, it’s usually one or two players, tops. It’s rarer to see more.
Of course they can spawn the M-51 three times, which can give you the illusion that you’re facing a billion of them I suppose, but it’ll always be the same guy(s).
Also, really? You never fight Fireflies? Black Princes?
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It’s about time it came back.
Exactly, let it be a derp vehicle it is and fight t62s. I can imagine people playing it for shits and giggles, no need for it to slaughter ww2 tanks.
Yes, it doesn’t matter if it had 5mms more or less pen… and that’s exactly why it doesn’t belong at 6.0, the pen is so ridiculous. The fact that it’s heat also matters, because heat doesn’t lose penetration at angles. You get full 200mm of pen at 60 degrees, it’s insane. There’s no reason m51 can’t fight t55s and t62s.
It’s simply not true.
Yes, the heat-fs is exactly the reason why it’s next gen…
This outright tells us you have zero idea how many vehicles actually use that gun.
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Also, have you even played the M51? You need to play it to actually understand how underwhelming the vehicle actually is, because it’s a vehicle that requires firsthand experience to really understand.
Your arguments reek of gross ignorance. I suggest you stop digging your grave and admit you’re objectively, fatally wrong on this topic.
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That’s what I was saying about it in my earlier post about combating it vs other things around 7.7 BR and how it has no place there.
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I mainly meant firefly, because it’s also a buffed sherman, but with an adequate gun for ww2…
I should’ve said firefly instead of 17 pounders.
To do that, you’d have to undo many years of development direction Gaijin has deliberately chosen. It’s not happening.
I’d like to see another company do a tank game that focuses on the historical aspect more. The niche is open after all. Unfortunately I’m afraid the player base for this sort of thing is too small.
Even WT would benefit from some stiffer competition.
If you really must invoke history, I have to point out that the service history of the M-51 is that it fought T-34-85s and Pz IVs on the Golan Heights.
So…
I guess, based on your historical matchmaking argument, that it should be something like 4.7, so as to see both those tanks? :P
There is a reason, actually.
A few posts back I said that the M-51 is in many ways, BR agnostic. The hull will always suck, the gun will always pen (pre ERA) anyway. How do you determine the BR of a vehicle like that, then? By everything else. It’s very slow and has atrocious gun handling, in that department it is completely outclassed by the vehicles you mention.
If my vehicle can pen yours, and yours can pen mine, the one that is more competitive is the one that does everything else better. That’s why Dicker Max is 3.7 and the IS-1 is 5.3, even though the 105mm of the Dicker Max eats IS-1s for breakfast, and in turn the IS-1 can easily kill a Dicker that’s out of position.
So the M-51 is at a BR where it meets vehicles that will also lolpen it, and don’t have a significant advantage in gun handling.
BTW, having low level crews greatly exacerbates those gun handling issues…
All HEAT rounds in game have terrible postpen, much worse than it ought to be. You often have to snipe crew members one by one. Only a direct ammo hit will sometimes get you OHKs, unless the target vehicle has a super compact interior layout.
It’s a StuG with no armour, good pen and bad postpen.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d still kick it up to 7.3 or even 7.7 in a decompressed environment, because it’s fast and the HEAT-FS is even more effective against small go karts found at those BRs. But if it were as slow as the M-51, then it should stay down too.
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There can be a 4.7 panzer 4 and an 8.0 panzer 4 with whatever mods they did to it (or didn’t), then i would be down for it. But not if it means a panzer 4 must always fight m51s.
“If you really must invoke history”, i think there is no point in further discussion then. You discuss if it’s balanced meanwhile i simply don’t care… just gtfo from ww2 m51 :p and other similar crap too (aml90, my behated)
I felt really betrayed after gaijin promised to solve the issue with heat-fs destroying ww2 armor in the roadmap and then they proceeded to move some tanks 0.3-0.7 higher… with some tanks, like m51 in question even staying at the same br, not even mentioning outliers like ikv103 or pt76. Granted it made those tanks get sucked up into higher br matches, but it shouldn’t even be possible for them to meet ww2 tanks, unless they added another version of them at high br.
For me it’s just funny how they added m36 with heat-fs to american tech tree, a perfect opportunity to make a legitimate case where a ww2 tank should fight post war tanks, and instead of moving it to like 7.0, they kept it 0.4 br higher than the ww2 version.