Thats sound to skill issue.
Sure, is german, is fine for you.
Doubt it.
You are too slow to utilize regular playstyles and are forced to more passive ones, which in the end is detrimental to the vehicle’s possible plays.
Are you calling me a German main ?
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Way worse then a firefly. A 17 pdr actually kills the things it pen’s unlike the m51 crit machine.
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lol did you send a nuking screen shot in an attempt to flex?
thats gotta be up there with “my dad can beat up your dad”
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This affect another tanks too and they sufered BR increase. Gaijin just forgot this underiered beast and need go up asap.
Nop, totally the opposite.
2 nuke screens i think are much better argument than “just shoot and ir dies”.
Much worse vehicles was moved to 6.3 or 6.7 so that thing need move up too.
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No.
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You missed what I tried to say dude.
I’m completely fine with SPz LGS moving down from 6.7.
You all discuss if m51 is balanced, but never stopped to consider if it fits in with other tanks at the br. This game is special because of its realism, fighting m51s in ww2 tanks is just anticlimatic. If m51 was really that bad, then let it be bad, why should it ruin ww2 br area. Balance is important, but it also has to be reasonable.
In my opinion everyone who is defending m51 just enjoys killing tigers and panthers in it, there’s nothing more to it.
It is part of the problem with lack of armor meta too.
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I mentioned some before.
OK, sorry for the confusion.
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Except they clearly aren’t killing Tigers with it.
If M51 was ruining WW2 tanks it would’ve been moved already.
Play it for yourself, it’s free.
They are because i got killed by them many times.I probably could’ve avoided all those deaths, but i refuse to accept the fact that i can be killed this easily.
I tried it in a test drive and the gun behaves the same as in leopard 1, just slower shells. It’s nuts. It has a great gun, it has a turret with normal rotation, it goes as fast as all the other shermans. I don’t have to play it to determine it’s a very good tank, but i will try it some day, maybe soon. Just to prove a point to myself.
Edit: But you missed the point again, you’re still debating if it’s balanced or not.
It really, really isn’t.
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Previously, I said that the M-51 was being a little undersold: in the right hands, it can be very good and even nuke worthy. So, obviously your screens don’t surprise me, and gg on them.
But it doesn’t mean it needs to move up. I get nukes with the Jagdtiger, does that mean it should also go up? I got a nuke with a Dicker Max once, do we make that 7.7 as well?
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Spookton and Oddbaws both got nuke in Tortoise in public game in an uptier, clearly a broken vehicle I see. It will be fine at 7.0 or maybe 7.3 even 7.7. /s
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Exactly my point. When you’ve played for thousands of hours, even if you’re not uber skilled, the experience alone will allow you to extract a lot out of many machines in game and occasionally drop a nuke with them. That doesn’t make them broken.
I strongly disagree with you
So tell me. Where is this realism you’re talking about?
Is it in the fact that the Third Reich and Israel can jointly deploy tanks to stop the mighty armoured Swedish invasion of Alaska, or to do battle with Italy on an Arctic research outpost from the 1980s?
Is it in the fact that we nonchalantly drive tanks into tightly packed urban environments with no infantry support? That artillery (the biggest tank killer IRL) is nonexistent, save for a barrage that lasts a few seconds and only covers a few dozen metres?
What about the lineups? Only two Dicker Max were ever built, but you can have six in one game. You have a problem with M-51s, what about IKVs at 4.0? What about WW2 vehicles that also time travel? Pz IV Hs and Pumas would be much higher in BR if we went by historical date rather than performance, you know that, right?
I find it curious that this doesn’t “ruin” the WW2 brackets for you, just the M-51 does.
Perhaps the realism you mention is in the performance of the vehicles… except it is not. Early T-34s without turret baskets can reload their guns even when the turret is not facing forward. Sturmtigers magically reload in less than a minute, down to 40 seconds if you have an aced crew.
My King Tigers can rotate the turret at its maximum theoretical speed, all the time, even when I’m using the engine to move at top speed. My Jagdtigers can hit 42km/h without any drivetrain component exploding.
We can pixel-hunt for weakspots when aiming, because we have fine motor control over our turrets and guns, while in WW2 laying the gun would require you to go fast at first, then start slowing down until you make the gun stop more or less where the target is. That’s why centre mass shots were very common, and why so many tanks maximised their UFP armour even if they had weakspots elsewhere. Does that “ruin” the WW2 BRs for you?
This is a game where HESH rounds can ricochet (impossible IRL), APCR does arrow-like damage (not true IRL), and the crew doesn’t bail the tank on the first penetrating hit, but stays in and keeps operating it to fight to the (literal) death.
It’s also a game where the kinetic impact of shells is not actually simulated. Have you ever hit an AML with a large-calibre APHE and “the fuze didn’t trigger” so you get an over-penetration? Except a shell that weighs 28kgs and hits the target at a velocity of 940m/s will likely destroy its suspension or structural integrity even if the fuze does indeed not trigger, because all that energy has to go somewhere.
Or maybe it’s realistic that we operate 1930s tanks using a third-person drone-like perspective that rotates 360°, and can comfortably peek behind corners because our barrels have no collision models?
War Thunder is very arcadey. I don’t mean that as criticism, at all. It’s what makes it so accessible. But people underestimate just how arcade it is, because they compare it to WoT (different niche).
What makes WT good, is that it looks and feels realistic even if it isn’t. The tanks move, sound, and feel like they’re real things. You get a real perception of the mass you’re moving, whether it’s agile or slow, and the visual restoration is impeccable. That creates great suspension of disbelief, and is super immersive, but it’s not the same thing as actually being realistic. It would probably be a worse game if it was, or at least it would be unrecognisable.
The other thing that makes WT good is the complexity of its damage model, and the fact that its matches are a mix of very simple core tasks to carry out to win, and very competitive and dynamic execution of that against players that are trying to outsmart you.
If you want a realistic tank game, you don’t play War Thunder, you play IL-2 Tank Crew or, even better, Steel Beasts. That’s really all there is to say about the subject.
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Problem is, if you move it higher then it’s only advantage (gun) will become mediocre while it will still keep it’s disadvantages. At that point, it becomes a overshadowed tank.
I don’t even have M-51 but I’m still defending it, because it seems decent for his BR.
BR is based on vehicle’s performance, not year of introduction.
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What can be better to kill german main who believed in its invulnerability? M36B2 also good in it.
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Now that I have talked about the issue of “realism”, let me move on to the rest of your arguments.
I’m a German main. Actually, I’m basically a German only.
I only play German vehicles up to BR 7.7 (the WW2 vehicles in particular, the postwar ones that are available there are helpful but not what I’m here for). My interest in the economic history of the Third Reich (and therefore its industry) started in an academic context and by reading specialised literature like Tooze’s Wages Of Destruction, years before I knew War Thunder was even a thing.
Precisely because I know a fair bit about how German tanks performed IRL, I can assure you, War Thunder is extremely flattering to them (as it is to the Soviets, in fairness).
So, it’s kind of funny to see you say that I’m defending the M-51 because I love killing Tigers and Panthers with it. Buddy, I’ve never played the M-51.
The only time I ever kill Tigers and Panthers is if I end up in a mixed all vs all GRB match, or if I encounter foreign-operated versions like the Heavy Tank No.6 or the Panther Dauphine and T-V. Otherwise, I’m the Tiger/Panther killing those pesky M-51s, or being killed by them.
You may disagree with my arguments, but don’t try to chalk them up to what I play. Because you assumed incorrectly.
Besides, there is nothing wrong about enjoying particularly cathartic kills. Look at what this guy says:
And tell me you’ve never felt anything like that while playing Germany yourself. Have you never taken out a Sturer Emil and sent a Black Prince to the shadow realm while thinking to yourself “target un-damage this”?
Have you ever nailed a T95 cupola at a distance, one-shotting it frontally with your Jagdtiger? Or one-tapped the weak spots of several IS-3s and IS-4Ms in a row with the Maus in simulator battles?
It’s perfectly normal, even a good thing I would say, because it motivates you to play. We all have that one tank (or more) that for one reason or another, we love killing. That competitive spirit is part of what makes WT fun.
The only reason why a vehicle should be in the game, is so that people will play it. Otherwise it’s a waste of assets. For people to play it, it has to be competitive. And for it to be competitive, well…
Is the Dicker Max part of the problem with the lack of armour meta? Sturer Emil? Nashorn? Waffentraeger?
I am completely on board with armour meta, more than most players I think, there is nothing more gratifying to me than memorising weak spots at BRs like 6.7 and getting them right while under pressure in a match.
But the M-51 is not a speed demon or a HEAT-FS go kart, which is what really breaks the armour meta around certain BRs. It’s basically a regular tank destroyer. Turreted, sure, but still a tank destroyer. Slow and no armour means it’s sacrificing everything for its gun, so the gun has to be good, otherwise why else would you ever bother to spawn it?
Same thing with Dicker and Sturer, the gun is their only redeeming feature, if it wasn’t exceptional you would never bother to deploy them in battle.
If you shoot at the lower front plate of an IS-2 with a Panther, does it not die in one hit? That’s how it works in this game. Many things are “easily killed” but the kill shot is only the culmination of all the tiny decisions you and the opponent made, that led you to that encounter.
You play WT a lot, you’ll get killed many times, by many things. Sometimes you’ll make very dumb mistakes and feel like a bloody idiot for 30 minutes afterwards. Sometimes you’ll pull out the performance of a lifetime and feel unstoppable. Either way, mistakes and failures are not something to be shunned. They are a necessary part of the process of getting better.
Well, for a start, you were hit.
Tiger Is and Panthers are not tanky tanks in this game. Even if you angle your Tiger, you will meet lots of guns that can hit your cupola, or the driver’s view port, or the 1st rack ammo, and if all else fails they can always track and barrel you.
Panthers have an exceptional UFP but people who know what they’re doing will never bother to shoot it. They’ll either barrel you, knowing that you don’t have the reverse to get away, or they’ll go for the gun mantlet and unless volumetric stops them, you’re dead then, every time.
That’s before you get into IS-2s, or the 17pdrs you encounter, or the high calibre HEs of some tank destroyers, or… etc etc.
So think about those times where M-51s did hit you, and replace them with any other tank you can meet at that BR, and you’ll quickly see that in many of those instances you would have died anyway.
There is a reason that the metaphor of the security onion is used so often.
Don’t be seen, don’t be shot at, don’t be hit. Survive the hit is only item #4 on this list, the one that takes place when all else has failed.
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