As someone with German blood myself; No, I don’t think I will when it comes to this.
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no ww2 ammo before 7.7 would ruin so many nations. and HEAT was used in ww2 so that wouldn’t change anything. a large part of why the M51 gets so much hell is because you need a lot more experience to get it than any other 6.0 vehicle and you can respawn it more so its spammed out in matches, so you’re more likely to die from one.
The FV4005 (when HESH fucking works) can obliterate almost everything in the game with great ease and one shot, but is also very poorly armoured. do you think it should go to 7.7 too?
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I explicitly say modern or post-WW2. There is a significant difference in design between Panzer 4 F1 or ISU-152 HEAT and M-51 HEAT, even when they have the same icon in the game.
Yes, the only reason this thing was made was to counter IS-3s and T-54s, but then the 105mm L7 came and they ditched it. It should be at least at the same BR as IS-3, so 7.3. The only problem is that I’ve heard HESH basically doesn’t work, it should be of course fixed, otherwise it’s pointless.
They work the same way
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I meant that differences in design allow it to have much more penetration. Panzer 4 F1 has 115mm of pen on 75mm HEAT, while M41 has 254mm of pen on 76mm HEAT. M41 has more pen on HEAT using a 76mm with 650g of TNT equivalent, than ISU-152 using 152mm gun with 4.8kg of TNT equivalent.
M41 uses Heatfs
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Guess what does FS stand for.
You really think the fins are the only difference?
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Yes, but they are important.
Fins allow HEAT to be accurate without the spin from the rifling, which makes penetration worse for HEAT shells.
However, some HEAT shells have a different approach, like the French one. It has a core that doesn’t spin, only the casing spins. It allows the shell to be fired from rifled guns without affecting penetration or accuracy.
There is no categorization of HEAT shells in the game based on their internal design.
The French HEAT on AMX-30, DF105 or M-51 performs exactly the same as a HEAT-FS shells. Saying it’s worse is a lie, unless the game is coded in a different way, but from my experience it’s not the case or at least the difference is negligible.
HEAT works in the same way no matter, its a shape charge, the only difference is how punchy it is.
youre also wrong about why they ditched the FV4005 project it was because ATGM programs were starting to show their effectiveness.
I use the FV4005 and centurion AVRE at all BRs above their intended one for the memes but to play it properly 6.3 is fair. Its the definition of glass canon, hesh doesn’t work and the FV4005s shell is missing a few KGs of plastic explosives plus its a BR where you see pretty much nobody but heavy tanks.
until the shell gets its correct values and hesh works consistently and properly 6.3 is good, once its fixed 6.7, it still has a 30 second reload with an aced crew after all
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I agree, but I would put it higher once it gets fixed. It shouldn’t be able to meet stuff like Tiger 1. Again, it’s the kind of tank that it doesn’t really matter what BR it’s at (as long as it’s conventional armor), therefore it shouldn’t harm other vehicles by being lower than it can handle being at. It would probably do better against slow superheavies, than Hellcats too.
8.0-9.0 should be purely reserved for vehicles like Leo1, M60, AMX-30, T-54s and T-55A, a BR bracket of early MBTs with HEAT, with some early APFSDS, which are weaker than HEAT anyway. T-55AMD-1 and T-55AM-1 at 8.7 is ridiculous. DM23 is already better than HEAT imo (nearly 200mm of 60 degrees pen), so stuff like M48A2 or TAM should go up.
Well yes, but that’s exactly the difference between old HEAT and modern HEAT. Modern HEAT has a more pointy shaped charged, leading to much more pen.
That’s a strawman argument. There’s a huge difference between MG Utility and Main Gun Utility. You’re comparing Apples to Oranges again.
You know that isn’t at all relevant. Stop drifting from your own statements. You stated the gun was bad yet also stated the entire EBR was good. If the entire EBR is good, the gun cannot be bad. Every vehicle fulfills a different role. Having no mobility doesn’t suddenly make a vehicle bad, it’s a combination of all factors. The 75mm gun isn’t bad, it just requires a good player and solid combination of hard factors to make work. No one aspect of a vehicle makes it good or bad.
You stated it was bad in general, not at a 6.3. Stop shifting your argument.
HEAT isn’t a cone. It’s a needle.
No, it won’t. The 105mm HEAT shell does not have sufficient internal spall to do that damage.
This is untrue. The 75mm gun typically requires two penetrations for a complete vehicle kill. It does not have sufficient explosive mass to reliably one shot like the Tiger. The Tiger 1 has over triple the explosive mass of a 75mm APHE shell in its Panzergranate.
No. APHE and HEAT warheads work fundamentally differently within this game. If you do not know that I honestly don’t know what to tell you.
Once again, you’re completely bipassing the fact the vehicle has horrible gun handling and velocity. Your gun takes longer to stop shaking and longer to range compared to other 6.0 cannons. While you don’t have to worry as much about Weakpoints, neither does the Tiger 1. The 88mm gun is already more than capable of ignoring almost every vehicle’s armor at its BR.
Do you main APCR?
With the drawback of being unable to shoot through soft cover, acquire targets quickly, and position effectively.
HEAT does not do good damage. It’s literally a LINE of damage. Your feelings are incorrect to how it is modelled.
You’re actually insane for calling a tank as sluggish as a King Tiger mobile.
The Reload of the M-51 is almost equal to the Tigers. It has no advantage over them and their gun does significantly more damage at its BR.
You stated you wanted Tigers and T-34-85s to fight, but if you had your way, it would be King Tigers and T-34-85s fighting in that situation.
Historical balance is not possible. It literally cannot exist. History is NOT balanced. Do you realize that the Panzer IV made up the majority of German Tanks during the Second World War? Do you want to face 7.7 Heavy Tanks like the IS-6 or T32E1 in a Panzer IV? Just say you desperately want your King Tiger to fight 75mm Shermans. We both know that’s what you actually want.
You don’t want a game with balance, you want a game where you can have a wet fantasy about Super Germany that doesn’t exist. News Flash, Germany really wasn’t that superior to the Allies. Sorry to shatter your stupid fantasy, but you’d destroy this game with nonsensical brain rot. You don’t even know what IS historically accurate. You’re just going off of what you think is.
No you don’t, you want a German Wet Dream.
That’s literally how games are. If you want a Milsim, go play Squad 44 or something. Unfortunately for you, you don’t grasp that History isn’t fair and Germany didn’t actually have super weapons. I hate to break it to you, but the M4 Sherman was 1.8 times more effective on offense than the Panther was.
If you want realism so bad, does that mean you want your German Tanks to break down constantly in the field and remain there indefinitely? Is that what you’d consider “Fun”?
The Tiger E and M-51 share the same BR. It’s only natural that they’d be a better comparison. I’m already humoring you comparing apples to oranges enough.
Of course, you forget to recognize that more than Horsepower matters. Ground Pressure, weight, transmission quality, and other small details matter just as much.
I rarely die to CAS. If I’m open topped, I rarely get bombed. If I get bombed, it won’t matter if I’m in a Cast Hull Sherman or an open topped vehicle.
That’s not historically accurate.
You said the M4A1 is a bad platform.
The Leopard 1 has armor on par to a Panther with the mobility of a light tank using the Royal Ordinance L7 equipped with APDS and HEAT-FS. It has a better gun, is much faster, and is much more armored. There’s literally no way you think the Leopard 1 and M-51 are remotely equivalent. That’s bat shit insane.
How many M-51 players have a good crew? They start at nothing at 6.0. Even if the vehicle can keep up in reload with a Tiger, you’re rarely going to meet an aced M-51 player.
HEAT was literally designed to deal with RHA. That’s its entire purpose. HEAT is not meant for anything else.
There’s a pretty significant difference in the M-51’s Shell Velocity compared to the rest. The E8 and 85 do come close, but that’s natural. Their guns aren’t High Velocity, but they’re still faster. The E8 has an advantage of the stabilizer while the T-34 has armor and mobility.
The Tiger 2 used to see the AMX-30, so no, it’s not. Taking an extreme like “88mm is better than L/55” is not remotely respectful to the discussion at hand. The AMX-30 can still reliably meet Tigers with certain lineups in the German Tree. It’s not remotely unrealistic within game.
The M-51 is a Sherman with that gun. It’s a glass cannon. Everyone at 8.0 knows the 105mm French HEAT gun is mediocre as well.
It’s called being more familiar to the game than you.
You’re ignoring the fact the M-51 has significantly worse Ground Pressure. The Transmission is also worse.
Once again, the King Tiger has 70 tons of armor. The M-51 is a LITERAL SHERMAN.
Don’t break ToS.
It’s fact.
I’ve never brought out global vehicle stats because they’re not public. Thunder skill doesn’t tell the proper picture.
But if you weren’t dying to it, why would you be here? Why would you make something that isn’t a problem into one if it wasn’t a problem for you?
Wow. That’s just a sad excuse for lying through your teeth about penetration.
Not remotely. It’s extremely easy to hit the base of the Cupola, which doesn’t eat shells.
Have you ever heard of “Aiming” and hitting a “Weakpoint”?
Are you suggesting that it’s impossible to hit those spots?
Is this Tiger H1 unkillable to you because you can’t Lolpen it by using the extreme penetration of your German Tanks?
Am I forging evidence right now by showing what happens when you target a weak point on a tank?
There’s only so far that a Sherman can realistically be taken. All vehicles have a limit to just how modified they can be. The M-51 has hit that limit and lost much of what makes Shermans what they are.
What does it matter when that gun is on a degraded Sherman that’s typically 3.3…?
Fuck No. Not remotely balanced.
Both of these are better in EVERY WAY other than raw penetration.
Both of these are already over tiered and shouldn’t be as high as they are. Neither are remotely equivalent to your King Tiger.
No, angling slightly and sitting in place is not “outplaying” someone. Your already lucky the King Tiger isn’t 7.0 when it’s basically identical to the T29 in ability. The Jagdtiger is already next to unkillable at 6.7 as it is.
The M18 isn’t capable of shrugging off all conventional rounds at its BR at any range. It’s literally just fast. Stop coping.
Are you suggesting the M4A3 76W and M18 becoming 6.7? Are you trying to sneak that in here?
You’re not good at balance. A Heavy should be hard to kill, not downright impossible. The only way a King Tiger can die is if the player using it makes a mistake or gets bombed. That’s it.
Explain to me what the purpose of a Tank Destroyer is if not a “Tank Destroyer”? Last I checked, Conventional Tank Destroyers aren’t meant to flank heavy tanks aggressively on the offense.
Almost every single 5.7 and above Tank Destroyer can Lolpen just as effectively as the M-51. 90 percent of those Tank Destroyers have HEAT shells.
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The amount of sheer German main COPIUM in this thread is astonishing.
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Because stuff like T-55AMD-1 and T-55AM-1 is too low. They should move up as well.
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I do partly agree there should be a notable gap between conventional weapons and unconventional but that’s mostly to get rid of autocanons and ATGM spammers below 8.3 and so that props don’t have to deal with jets dominating only because they run away. for example my 7.7 lineup is all vehicles from before 1955 other than the fox and I’m facing crap from as recent as the 70s which clobbers me most of the time, there should be more balancing based on a vehicles technological generation and capabilities than player skill issue
as for your comments on things like the leopard and all the other second-gen MBTs I think they should go up just out of BR decompression anyway, I think its less about the shell family of origin and more about its actual capabilities with said tank. HEATFS can still suck ass vs the kinetic options even when on paper its the best shot the tank has
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REAL
Very Real.
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REAL AND TRUE.
Real and True.
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Fax brother, So true my friend.
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I don’t even want to reply to you now, as I’m not even angry/annoyed anymore, but genuinely concerned.
When I see things like these:
I’m genuinely concerned that you either can’t comprehend what you’re reading or can’t think logically. Or both.
When I read things like these on top of that:
I just completely lose interest in talking with you.
Also the fact that you even mention armor here:
As if both tanks at 8.0 aren’t glass canons.