Hello.
I agree. Just look at how survivable TAM is compared to its MBT cousin.
They should take the naval flooding mechanism, give light tanks a hull health, and adapt it to ground; “flooding” should result in instant death (cus the naval system is inconsistent)
HESH definitely needs hull break
I said this before but vehicles, yes, vehicles should not survive anything with enough HE. We need hull break for light trucks and the such. We have vehicles like Pantsir surviving things it shouldn’t.
No damage to crew at all! If this had been a ItO90 or ADATS it would have had everyone taken out.
This, absolutely. Why should an arbitrary list of “light vehicles” which can be heavier than MBTs (looking at things like the PUMA and Nesher) be instantly destroyed due to damage of the vehicle’s exterior? Sure that’s realistic, heavy damage to a vehicle will completely knock it out even if the crew is unharmed. But this is still a game where you can completely swap the drivetrain, tracks, armament, and literally every other internal component in 30 seconds! The only way I see hull-break as a good implementation is if it applies to all vehicles and also repairs (and by extension crew replenishment) are disabled. But I expect very, very few would want to play such a hardcore mode, considering even just Sim has so fewer players over RB.
Plus you know overpressure already takes care of light vehicles, if people learned to simply take the 5 holy HE/HESH they wouldn’t have any problem with “no armour best armour”.
100000000% yes. Its crazy when you smack a BMP with 165 or 183mm HESH only to get a “HIT”
Any tanks that suffer from over 20kg TNT explosive should be Hull break, I don’t believe there’s a tank out there that can withstand that much tnt.
No, do not reintroduce hull break. It was awful and literally made more problems than solved problems.
Vehicles with poor protection survive AP impacts because the AP lacks the capability to impart its energy into the light armor, that’s literally realism. If you know you’re likely to face trucks and light armor in your BR zone, bring HE as a first shot. This is especially true for the Jagdtiger, where the HE is very effective, having HE content that is more than capable of killing literally everything on the battlefield frontally. 3.7 kg of TNT will absolutely demolish literally anything, provided you know how to aim.
I’ve literally gone played the IS-4 exclusively firing HE in the past and it is surprisingly effective. The Jagdtiger has around the same HE content for its ammo.
That’s not realistic in the slightest. Your video shows what amounts to the most optimistic extreme edge case where a full caliber “AP” shell transfers significant KE to the target, but you failed to note that the 105mm round was not actual 105mm ammo from history.
That’s a cast pot steel round, that is both especially soft, heavy and slow to not put much strain on the gun and pressure bearing parts. Actual 105mm L7 KE ammo would fly into the aluminum engine block and fly right out the other side. The cast pot steel ammo is equivalent to using a hollow point bullet on a soap bubble. Not at all representative of 105mm APDS or even 105mm AP/APHE. Note that a majority of catastrophic damage images from the web are due to one of three factors; fire, high explosive or multiple shots.
Load HE then. You can and most certainly will oneshot many vehicles of any weight class with large guns. I load HE or HEAT whenever I need to deal with something without armor, it’s second nature for me now. If you can’t reload safely, then you make the best of the bad position you put yourself into and fire into the “hardest” part of the light vehicle and hope your HE content carries you. It works quite consistently.
No, that’s nowhere near reasonable. Hull break was a punishment for light vehicles because most players were too apathetic to load the correct ammo. Unless it’s applied globally (see LOSAT kill mechanism IRL), it will always remain a punishment for light vehicles. Overpressure and correctly functioning additional modules are fine for now.
If anything, were you to actually suggest a reasonable “hull break” it’d be made exclusive to ammo with high explosive content (and certain edge cases such as LOSAT) as KE ammo will overpenetrate and fail to deal significant damage even when hitting “hard” modules of vehicles IRL. HE makes the entire structure of things warp and fail, KE will sail through one side and right out the other, even if there’s a lump of aluminum in between.
I said that I know that twice.
Are you for real saying that you should play the Jagdtiger with HE main?
I sometimes do that with the IS6 when the spam is too bad but this can’t be a real solution. If it was you would see everyone with a heavy tanks playing with HE, but that’s not the case.
Idk what would happen with each round on each vehicle irl, you probably know that way better than me.
In fact, though, we have a distortion of reality where a light armored vehicle would be out of action after being hit in the right spot. One example of why slightly armored vehicles profiting from the ingame environment is is because of the rep. mechanics.
It is quite inconsistent. As I have showed, the extrem of that is having to scratch the gun breech of a M109 so it does kill it. What a great time to be playing a 20 sec. reloading gun. That’s just not what I mean by balance and fun.
Maybe at that point where reloading takes half a minute it is not about being apathetic anymore. If no-one manages to do that, maybe you should blame the game and not the player.
Btw overpressure is very unrealistic, too. Not as a concept but it is way over exaggerated. Just as a note.
HE as your main ammo? Don’t be ridiculous. I’m suggesting you load a couple HE rounds first and then switch to APHE after the initial light vehicle rush ends. It’s not that complicated.
At that point, it is your fault for being apathetic, yes. There are tanks with 30+ second reloads that still need to load the right ammo for the right targets. T30, Obj. 268 both have slow reloads and cannot get away with exclusively firing AP ammo. It’s annoying and cumbersome but it is the right way to play. Jagdtigers work best in one of two situations; with a friend to cover your slow reload or at distance significant enough to prevent a failed shot of the wrong ammo into something too light.
You can hit him in his ammo, or shoot his driver / transmission and retreat to reload HE, fire just under the gun to fuse your ammo on his engine block, or even shoot the ground under him to overpressure edit: it seems they’ve recently changed this behavior to make it much more difficult. Still, ammo and engine hits will kill a M109 consistently. There are many ways to deal with a M109. If you have to deal with multiple tanks with a M109 who thinks they’re invulnerable, that’s a case of bad position or bad luck, getting rushed during a slow reload is a weakness you have to play around.
IMO hullbreak should come to the game again… there are multiple situations where you shoot a large round into a frontal plate of the tank and you will never ever pen it even after 6 shots etc…
While adding some realism which would just make the material in the hull lose strenght imagine shooting a HE round into a frontal plate of a lets say leopard in no way you will do anything but after 5 shots spalling would break off etc that i would love to see
Yes!
Overpressure mainly effects open top vehicles and increased the killing power of HE shells against armor with direct or near hits.
The reason it works is because it kills crews and crews are the lifeblood of any vehicle in WT.
Which can easily repair damage which would have disabled the tank.
Of course it doesn’t make sense that crews can repair damage that isn’t repairable.
If a gun, transmission or engine is hit directly by a cannon shell, it needs to be replaced.
Likewise armor is never damaged and affects the vehicle. Even though a vehicle might have two 120mm large holes in the turret after being shot.
I do hope this happens, or atleast somewhat happens
FV4005 will appreciate this, no more Tiger II surviving direct hits that would break every weld remotely near the impacted plate
Loading HE as first shot because maybe there could be a light tank as first opponent and after that just hoping the enemies will have substantial armor is not really a great solution. This basically means light tanks have a special advantage and you don’t have a real reliable solution for that.
Just say that the “no armor best armor” meta is what you like because that is what your post implies to me.
It’s not just me, as I already wrote in my previous post, most players don’t use HE as their first shot. And this is a very important point because it means that it might not be an efficient tactic to do so. You might think that everyone is still missing out on this, but players usually adopt such tactics over time when they are good enough.
So your friend makes up for the imbalance. Just play it together with your friend to make up for the disadvantage, is that what you are saying? You can bring up this point for every sh!t vehicle in this game, it still won’t fix the issue.
Most long reloading tanks indeed are very good at long range combat but I don’t get the point of when sniping the issue of lack of post pen effect won’t occur anymore. Isn’t it even harder to aim pixel perfect for the oneshot then?
No reliable kill
Just a crit, not a kill. The M109 will be able to shoot back.
That (engine block) doesn’t work at all, it juts doesn’t, try it out in the hangar.
Even if the methods you listed worked it would still mean: Thanks to it’s thin armor the M109 can survive more than any IS2, T-34/29/30 and any other conventional tank.
That is exactly that paper armor meta that I want to end.
The reliable solution is HE ammo. It’s pretty simple.
Or maybe I just don’t want to return to the era of idiotic mechanics that are designed intentionally to punish light armor for daring to exist and handhold bad players with an unrealistic advantage? Like what I said in my original post?
Not planning to efficiently deal with your opponents is exactly the reason why you struggle. Either learn the hard module positions to keep using APHE and win or swap ammo to make use of overpressure.
The majority of players have learned to shoot engine blocks for APHE to function normally. Because they have learned to aim.
Maybe my wording was vague, but the meaning is to play the tank with blues around you so nobody tries to jump out and kill you for shooting one enemy. Don’t go off and drive into a situation where you are surrounded and isolated and lack the time to take enemies out one by one. Kinda applies to the majority of the game, really.
The intent is to give you the opportunity to reload without dying if you play at distance. Again, pretty simple. Shoot them, maybe immobilize them, reload HE or hit them in the engine to kill.
M109 isn’t a top BR tank with blowout panels, it explodes if you shoot the ammo/propellant casings.
That is the intent, immobilize them and pull back around cover so they cannot shoot you before you reload HE.
You try it, it works for me with the tank pretty much 100% of the time. From a decent number of angles, too.
Until the instant any SPAA, CAS or tank with HMG secondary comes along the M109 is getting shredded by their guns or exploded from way further away by their bombs. You’re putting poorly armored tanks on a pedestal of nigh invulnerability to literally everything in the game when that isn’t the case.
You should try playing the tank with bad armor to experience firsthand what happens to them when something rolls/flys along that can just hold the dakka dispenser down and turn you into swiss cheese. Or what happens when someone next to you gets bombed or missed by a bomb and it kills you.
“No armor best armor” is a meme. 98% of the complaints I see from people related to poor armor causing overpenetration is due to them being incapable of aiming or loading HE. The last 2% are getting hit by the snail’s incredible ability to turn a good shot into one that does literally nothing due to ping, server issues or RNG.
Again, this is the paper armor meta I do not want. I actually would like the game to be in a way that armor is not something negative for tanks.
Try it from the front with a Jagdtiger. It won’t work. I’ve tried it.
This is probably where our opinions fundamentally differ.
I guess you believe in a system of rock paper scissors where certain vehicles have a substantial advantage over others.
I think this graphic describes it the best:
overgeneralized, there is way more types of tanks, attributes etc.
I believe that all the tanks in the battlefield should be balanced to each other. That would promote just skill.
This is a slim but deciding factor between your view of how the game should be balanced and how I view it.
In order to achieve what is being shown in this graphic the slightly armored vehicle (G6 here) should not be the one with the best survivability out of these 3.
Ofc the vehicles can never be perfectly balanced. I just don’t like the way of balancing which is every type vehicle getting one meta- advantage and - disadvantage over another one.
And ofc in this way of balancing, SPAAs and planes would still punish light armor but these encounters are rarer and it’s not like I like the role of some rat SPAAs or planes either.
How would hullbreak work if it splits my tank in half?
Say my G6 is split between the drivers cab and the turret crew do I just die even if enough turret crew survived to shoot back.
If I don’t die I would find it a bit too much damage for any repair time to fix.
As it has been in the game already, you’d die.
No, I just don’t want to return to the time where light vehicles ate ammo to their hull corner or external optic and instantly died. Everything counters everything if played correctly, barring a handful of outliers that physically cannot damage certain enemies in their matchups.
Hull break was literally just punishment for not playing something with the arbitrary “heavy enough to not be subject to punishment” line in the vehicle code. It was extremely unfair. Light tanks with 30mm on all sides would get instantly destroyed, but MBTs with that on most of their sides would be allowed to repair and fight back. That’s ridiculous.
Me neither. As I said in my post, there should be stricter standards. For example: a round having to hit large modules with a certain kinetic energy.
I believe that slightly armored vehicles do have that one meta-advantage.
When having very little armor in War Thunder you get to have the advantage of being more mobile but on top of that you are better off when it comes to survivability, too. Especially many medium tanks have a very unfortunate spot in the game because of their designers having added a bit of additional armor that’s just a disadvantage in the game.
Not only do I believe that it is unfair to punish too much armor, I also think that the shift to light armor meta is not what a tank game should be about and makes the game less fun. On some tiers you only get to see people cruising around with these “cars”. People don’t even play light tanks in a tactical way as it used to be, they straight up just speed into the center of the map.
You are right with that. It still is a game, though. You just can’t simulate reality, there will always be compromises. I just believe that with hullbreak the game is better than without, I’m not saying it would be perfect but it isn’t perfect right now anyways and it will never be.
Well from a balancing perspective I would disagree with “It was extremely unfair”. I think it would be less unfair as it is right now.
