WW2 gun camera. Planes do NOT disintegrate from 1-2 hits, there’s footage of La-5 getting a few hits in the tail and P-47 getting struck in the wingroot a few times. In game they absolutely do, left and right. With Shvaks/Ho-5 I barely ever get kills via fire. They are instant due to wings/tails coming off from 1-2 hits.
Right now 20mm cannons basically have 50% of Mk108 power, with 3-4 times less mass and 8-20 times smaller explosive filler.
Man you must havbe played hundreds of games in those planes in the last 24h to have all this experience. Wait you have not? Man what a bummer
And your numbers are getting morte and more randome.
There are thousands of pictures of Planes being downed by a single 20mm cnanon shell so what?
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I have completely lost track of what you are trying to convince people.
Is it one/a few aircraft over-performing because of Real-shatter/lack of real-shatter?
or is that you think all aircraft are over-performing from real-shatter?
Or something else entirely
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So you need thousands to learn anything?
That’s pretty sad and it says a lot about you.
To properly observe and draw proper conclusions you need some skill (to get reliable results in-game, but god damn, there are also custom battles) and intelligence. If you have neither, you write personal attack posts like the above.
The game allows you to test the damage. The game allows you to slaughter bots flying fully modelled planes in custom battles. The game allows you to watch replays and see not only yours, but every other kill too.
And I’m scoring kills with ridiculously short bursts, the only time I was killing people this fast was when Ta-152C3 was actually good. But it had 4x20mm + 30mm and that was before the ballistics giganerf.
Show me two pictures of wing or tail ripped off entirely by a single hit from 20mm. You know, how 20mm hit looks like?
Around 15cm, maybe 20cm hole in the thin aluminium skin.
You know how big the wing is and what % of skin is destroyed by such hit?
You can do the math.
I’m waiting for the pictures anyway.
There was 1 WW2 commonly used weapon that ripped wings off in 1 hit.
It was MK108.
Over 100g TNT equivalent and 330g weight.
Shvak is 90g and 6g TNT equivalent.
Ho-5 is 80g and 7g TNT equivalent.
Hispano and AN/M3 are 130g and 9,3 to 12,4g TNT equivalent.
Type 99 2 is 130g and up to 16,8g TNT equivalent.
Mg151/20 is 90g and 29,8g TNT equivalent.
And even MG151/20 shouldn’t be close to removing a wing in 1-2 hits.
Some results, and yes, MG151/20 sometimes turns this module yellow, sometimes orange, sometimes even red and I got black once. Shvak - red or black every time.
Black means “it’ll come off or is one the brink of it”. Either way it’ll criple your maneuvrability. Yellow or orange will not. One shell should not be doing that much damage. Even MG151/20 shouldn’t make the module go instantly black. Red maybe. But never black.
Edit: post is on topic, it’s the other user who started ridiculous arguments and hostile tone
Your entire first sentence is an insult proofing me right. You have no idea what you are talking about and are just making shit up as you go.
Everyone I have talked to, the entire subreddit and this forum disagree with you, yet here you go and insult people.
Your entire argument about the “15-20cm holes” is once again done deaf. You are literally citing ME when writing that but you are leaving out the important part. The wing, for the third or fourth time now, ONLY RIPS OFF IN HIGH G TURNS IF THEY HAVE SUCH HOLES.
Then you show a clear lack of game knowledge. Black does not mean it is gone, it means it is anything from severely damaged to missing. It goes from very light superficial damage to light, medium heavy, very heavy and then severely damaged. Anything beyond is seen as destroyed and in this game it means you are dead.
And tellingly, the screenshot you provide shows an area which is commonly blacked out on most planes after a fire fight without the plane being downed.
And the Protection analysis is not a great tool for this as it is 1.Bugged to hell and back, especially for ground but to some degree, even for air; 2. It shows only a single bullet at a time and can not memorise damage over time.
Again, everyone disagrees with you. So maybe think about that before starting to insult other peoples people’s intelligence in the most baseline matter possible.
You are not correct. Your maybe 10 or 20 games of experience are not THE experience. I played well over 30 games of Ground with planes in Sweden, Germany, Ru and US today and your “wings always snapp off after one or two hits” is simply not what I myself achieved or experienced. The only plane which regularly lost its wings was the A21 A3 which is notorious for losing its wings by itself.
My P51 still tanked multiple Hits from all kinds of cannons, including at least 12 from an PE 8 and at one point a Bf 109 survived 4 20mm Shvak hits to its right wing as well as at least another 4 to its fuselage. Which, once again, is nothing impossible, just rare.
From all I could tell you are simply salty that your Planes now have to face enemies whcih can fight back. Your beloved 50cals and German Minengeschoss are nolonger the undisputed king of the game and you are whining about other, some after over a year, finally having proper damage models on their ammunition.
Again American Cannons have been dealing 0 HE and 0 shrapnel damage since at least March 2022. Hispanos stopped dealing much damage, and then stopped dealing any HE damage 6 months ago. The Russian Shvak was even worse off as it had no Proper high damage SAPHE round like the Hispanos. Cannons until this last patch where dead for anything affected by RealSHatter which was the wast majority of planes in this game.
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At first I thought he just wanted a Mg151/20 buff (understandable), but it seems to be more than that.
I guess he wants the rest of the cannons to get nerfed again & Mg151 to be more reliable to be “historically accurate”??
Since he keeps comparing with Shvaks, Ho-5’s and the rest of the cannons.
War Thunder isn’t historically accurate to the core, so I don’t understand how cannons being strong are such a bad thing, honestly.
In many cases we can get short bursts kills, after all this is a game and we have the benefit of 3rd person + mouse aim, so that you are able to continuously hit 20-50 rounds without missing much.
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Yeah, I have no idea what is going on. But doesnt seem happy that other aircraft are good again
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I ignored the other guy, since he apparently just wants to troll instead of doing some honest discussion and ignores my experience and intelligence. He could not provide any counter-proof to my claims, and claim that you need to kill “thousands” of planes to know if cannons kill fast in a game with slow motion replays is ridiculous.
Now, right now you don’t need good gunnery. You don’t need to move your point of aim to get several shells on target (like you have to do with MG151/20 which was ALREADY a bit too strong). You just need to land 1-2 shells and the target is gone.
We have essenrialy removed any impact of explosive filler, shell mass, shell kinetic energy, because all real shatter cannons right now are 1-shot wonders.
Furthermore it doesn’t matter if your plane is sturdy and armored or made of paper - you get hit, you die.
So we have fully or largely removed several factors from the game:
- shell stats (because as long as it’s 20mm HE, you die almost instantly)
- plane firepower (because as long as you have even 1 20mm, you are going to be killing your opponents supwr-fast)
- plan sturdiness (because getting hit = dead, so right now the smaller plane always has advantage)
- AP/IT shell effectiveness - because HE is so superior it’s a non-contest, HE wins every time while IRL belts were mixed for a good reason
- ability to follow the enemy with your aim (if enemy flies into the stream of your shells, he’s usually dead, you don’t have to catch him for longer period of time, like I used to do with MG151/20 - because you don’t need 6-8 shells on target, you need 1-2 around wing, tail or engine). This means absolutely spraying in a head-on is strongly rewarded and generally you can get away with way worse gunnery and less skill.
So weapons are no longer diverse, now all that counts is ballistics and a bit of ROF. Everything else? You kill the enemy with extremely low amount of shells on target anyway, there’s so little difference between AN/M3 and Ho-5 when it comes to impact on target you can basically ignore it.
Planes also feel like paper, there’s no satisfaction in breaking them apart, because they break apart instantly when hit.
I do not consider this a good change. The fun of “aircraft games” is that you work to get some time on target, you don’t just “point in front, and click”, you keep moving the reticle to keep landing and observe the enemy getting shot to pieces gradually, not snap like a dry twig.
This is also absolutely unrealistic. And makes .50 cals a sad sad weapon compared to everything else.
What benefits the most?
Underarmed (IRL) Soviet and some Japanese planes.
Who gets hit the most?
Germany, Italy (lots of armanent, mostly bad ballistics) and US (.50 cals and sturdy planes with 4x20mm that is an overkill - but some US planes with 1-2x20mm benefit)
Also who benefits the most:
- bad players relying on luck, who can’t get proper gun solution
Who loses the most: - good players who learned good gunnery and energy traps, because it’s way easier to die to a random spray while there’s no benefit to keeping the guns on target for longer than 0,2s, before I was usually landing several shells before the target died so it was crucial to lead and keep leading properly in 1 smooth motion.
How do you know its only 1 or 2 shells? Many of these guns, have fairly decent fire rate. Whilst i concur that 1 round isnt enough in most cases, how do you know its not multiple rounds impacting?
I think the Hispanos have a fire rate of around 600/minute. So in a 1-3 second burst you could be hitting a target with a lot of rounds.
That video shows the damage of the 151/20 did to a spitfire. One round did massive damage. Multiple hits would have taken it down. Should it sheer a wing off. I dont know. But i think we have to accept some game limitations
I never claimed that you need to “kill thousands of planes” You claim that. You claim to have used bot games and know it all. Which is simply impossible since bot games take more time to get data they however get you more reliable data and a greater mass. Yet there was no time for such a thing between you making claims and the patch going live.
You have not engaged in a singlöe argument I made the entire time btw.
Again Cannons are fine and noone but you shares your experience neither prior to the Patch nor after it.
Right now you need good gunnery like in real life where a single burst of Cannon was usually enough to disable or kill a Plane Leading is what happens prior to shooting, not during it. What you are describing is not “Good gunnery” but “Spray and pray” If the enemy hits you in a single burst he is a good aim! not a bad one. Hitting you first try is not luck. For all but but the MG 151/20 the RoF is such that a single 1s burst on target will lead to 5 or more hits which is enough to kill most planes.
No cannons do not deal the same amount of Damage there is also still a clear difference between HEI and HEF rounds to be felt. You should play those planes before making such claims. Again
- Wrong (Your screnshots even disprove you and as stated before they are not even accurate)
- Wrong (Placement, Kind of 20mm, accuracy? all irrelevant?)
- Wrong (While technically you are correct this is not the cause of the issue. Larger planes have been flying wet paper for years now)
- Wrong (Mixed belts are now finally back in order after the US used only AP belds for a year or more. Even in this thread you find multiple people confirming this)
- Wrong (Gunnery is about leading prior to shoting if you miss you have to try again. “Getting guns on targets” does not involve shooting. You do not shoot while you are recalibrating you aim. Shooting pushes your plane back and makes it harder to get on target. Even in Reality the mostz anyone shot was a 1s burst and that was with 50cals with cannons the US trained for less than half a second bursts while Germany seems to have been somewhere between 0.5 ans 1s with theit bursts depending on gun configuration. The aim was for the Gunner to get a decent number of possible bursts out of his ammo. Waht you are describing is once again called “Spray and prey”
All that matters now is skill and not dumb RNG.
Can not confirm whatsoever. Parts break oiff, but a plane usually does not disintegrate on hit. For that to happen High G`s are needed in combination with multiple hits, at which point the plane is usually already dead and spinning out of control.
No this is absolutely realistic. Do you know why we changed from MG`s to cannons? Because ToT was approaching 0 faster and faster so you needed to deal as much damage as possible in 1-2s of ToT. Being in a multiple minute dogfight with 20 or 30s of firing happening is a fiction of Hollywood and has nothing to do with reallife or realis.
WHo benefits the most? Well all cannon armed planes as they should after being useless for the last 6 months
And “Underarmed soviet planes”? You do realise that the Soviets usually over armed their planes when compared to every other nation? When the US, Britain and Germany still considered 4 303s to be a strong fighter armament the soviets already considered 6 303s to be to littele and demanded sth closer to 50cals or cannons. Hence why even their Biplanes have cannons at times.
The Shvak and its offsprings are considered to be among the best if not the best aircraft cannon of WWII
Who gets hit the most?
Apparently you. The rest is once again wrong
And lastly
-
Nope already shown twice how wrong you are
-
Same
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Fun Fact that one hit took down the plane as mentioned in the Video.
The plane was written off and the Pilot was out of action for a while if I remember correctly
So that one 20mm cannon hit was a full 100% kill.
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I’m sorry but lets dissect this for a second…
- First off, all cannon ballistics have been changed, not just German one. If you are hitting shots now from 700+ meters out at any sort of speed it’s more based on enemy doing their best Stevie Wonder impression than anything else, with any gun which isn’t some high powered cannon (like Type 5 or similar)
- There’s no reason that planes with low ammunition count should be combat ineffective when they have the skill and patience to work with 100-150 rpg and maybe 1-2 cannons. They’ll need solid gun solutions and arent in a position to just spray away at odd angles or higher distances. Yes you do need to take care because someone with decent aim can just tap fire you from range, but see point 1 above. Getting hit like that – your fault
- 50 cal is all but useless, these MG are very effective and seem to have gotten quite a significant increase in damage since they changed the DM of all planes in the recent update. If you think they are bad, then maybe improve on your aim with them. Have you even tried the 50s?
- If you die to someone, seems he did get a proper gun solution. Sure you can get spray and pray’d, but you could get the same before. It’s not normal someone just tanks the rounds and gets a kill. Before this update I have shot P51Hs point blank low speed with 6(!!!) Type 99 cannons only to get a crit while they tank everything else. That’s not normal and it wasn’t an exception. I’d make it my style to hold the trigger down until they are dead, which is a playstyle is despise. Many times I have fought enemies that wouldn’t die in 2-3 passes when flying something with low ammo and/or a single cannon, I’d lose my energy and position, many times it would also lose me the match due to that. I could hit a hole in the wall out of frustration for not being able to play how or what I like to play unless it had MG151
- If you did your energy trap well, he wouldn’t have a gun solution. If he just hangs below you with his nose pointed right at you and in range while you are too slow to dodge, that’s entirely your own fault. In such situation you would of had other options before that even happened. Everyone misjudges time to time, just evaluate what you could of done differently instead of being like “I don’t want to die when someone hits me with 20mm HEF”
Last but not least, you are not the only person that dies in singular hits, you can do the exact same thing to others too. If you consider yourself a decent or good player, then you will know how to work with this new damage effectively in any plane. Sure it requires some getting used to, but it’s not like we never had working guns before. MG151 still does a load of damage as it did before, the gun didn’t suddenly become useless though it does need to get realshatter applied to it as well to bring it in line with everything else.
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After the recent update i think the damage is sufficient.
Tested it on multiple different guns, i think we found a good sweetspot.
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You totally misinterpreted my energy trap comment. Energy trap are here to be able to unload on target at will, in other words - land as many shots as you wish.
And all but MG151/20 cannons were horrible about 2 weeks ago. Then they got buffed and I had no issue scoring quick 6 kills in AD-4. Now they got buffed to like 3 times the power they had. Which is ridiculous.
And 700m shots are fairly common - 3rd party, higher alt, energy traps or high speed turnfights above 4000m etc. And you misinterpreted 700m comment by not thinking about it. I mentioned shell gets outrun at 700m in a chase, to show you how horrible the ballistics of MG151/20 (which got nerfed by faaaaar the most) are which means they arw also bad at 500m and at 400m. The 700m was there to show just how horribly fast it slows down.
But firing at someone in a chase is also fairly common - to make them dofge and slow them down. With MG151/20 P-51H doesn’t have to bother dodging at 600, because the flight time will be horrible already (and shot most likely missed by a mile) if he’s going 600+.
Buff being they did 2 shrapnel’s more which weren’t working anyway and didn’t make a change? And they still aren’t “3x the previous damage”. Before this change you needed about 4 hits with shvaks for a kill, in the past this was the same already, it hasn’t really changed over the entire lifetime of this game. If you look at your MG151 kills, you’d also often see something like 12 hits vs 3 kills. Anyone who pays attention to those screens knows this is the case, it’s nearly something universal in the game when it comes to 20mm rounds. The thing was that because of bugs in realshatter (or rather the plane’s DM), you’d often not get those hits even when hitting the enemy. Lots of hits would just do 0 damage on them. This is what is changed now. Hits actually do damage nearly all the time on the spot you hit them. There’s no reason this should be changed back to hit doing no damage very often.
Also, nobody wants this changed back to how it was. You know, back in the days - it was always like this except a few broken guns (Hispano II’s had many damage issues in the past iterations of guns f.e.) and AN/M3 did silly amounts of damage (way more than they do now, and could deliver accurate shots of over 1.4km away).
The only argument I could get behind is having the amount of shrapnel tied to the explosive mass of the round as currently any 20mm kind of feels the same, it’s not just a “Shvak issue” though I can understand it’s highlighted as many Russian planes sit on a too low BR for their flight performance so suddenly getting guns that deal damage again really shows the issue more clearly as they have an easy time getting guns on target respectively to their enemies.
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They did make a change. Quite a big one IMO.
Of course it was still wrong, but way better than what we have today.
Necessary changes are as follows: damage should depend on kinetic energy and chemical energy. Shrapnel pattern should depend on shell relative velocity and size of bursting charge.
Damage should be adjusted to realistic values and MG151/20 should probably hit v. hard with Type.99 and AN/M3 reaching similar damage potential at short range and Shvak/Ho-5 being just kinda bad.
But by “v. hard” I mean 4-5 M-geschoss to the wing destroys it more often than not, and wingtip requires 2.
And AN/M3 is just as good as in its best times. 1 tap - ded. They have lost some long range ballistics, still the lead required is laughable compared to MG151/20 which has to lead A LOT more than Ho-5.
Can you share footage of a buffed cannon taking out a wing in a single round?
Also, define “realistic values” can you provide real-life evidence of how much damage these weapons “should” be doing? Im all for realism and getting it right. But if taking out a fighter with half a dozen 20mm cannon rounds is realistic, then what is there to change?
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While we are on the same page regarding a MG151/20 buff & that it could be stronger than the rest of the guns no problem at all… I mean lets implement it to Realshatter already.
I will have to disagree with you again when it comes to making other guns bad in the game, I don’t get why some players should just suffer with their guns being unrewarding even if they play their cards right because apparently it was like that IRL, it simply does not benefit gameplay in any way imo.
If the bad player managed to land shots on you (the good player), that means he made a good enough play right? Had decent aim there to hit you thus he should be rewarded for it. It’s not like I want him to get only hits even tho he managed to land 5-10 20mm rounds on me solely cuz I believe that I’m the better player and he got lucky.
You don’t instantly die from 1 single shell, sure it damages you more, but won’t destroy your plane completely. Also remember that many short bursts that look like 1 taps are often 4-8 HE shells (few of them being tracerless) hitting a wing/tail/elevator cuz we have the benefit of hitting these almost perfectly with mouse aim + 3rd person unlike IRL.
Good players did not lose anything from that dude, did not lose skill, performance, awareness, none of that.
If a good player is flying a Bf-109 or a Corsair/P51D/P47 he will still play to his aircraft advantages just like before…and his guns will kill the enemy the same way as always.
And again dude, I strongly believe that Mg151/20 should be buffed (but not at the cost of other guns getting worse like you may want), in it’s current state it’s not terrible but it definitely is lacking power and requires improvement.
To give you an example, when Realshatter was implemented I flew the Italian P47 and Fw190 F8 a lot, and I would often push full commit headons solely because I knew that 98% of the guns didn’t work so I knew could abuse that.
Was that fair?
Nah, it probably was very irritating for many players, including myself when I played Japan, Great Britain and Russians.
Did it benefit gameplay? Absolutely not.
Should I have died in many of these headons? Yes 100%.
I think that for the first time… we are so close to having all guns working greatly, being fun for everybody, I don’t see why somebody would want to go back to guns being underwhelming and unrewarding for a few nations exclusively.
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Because some guns are simply weaker.
I"m not talking about making them horrible.
I’m talking about making them NOTICEABLY weaker than MG151/20 so you have to land a good burst (just like IRL) to get an effect.
To be honest, kills where I see flashes all over the enemy and then he finally crumbles are way more satisfying than “I land something and he dies”. Why? Because I know my marksmanship was on point and I was able to follow the right point of aim instead of just firing at one spot till enemy crosses it.
Look at my P-51H screenshot a bit above:
People do not complain about MG151/20 yet to kill him I had to:
- land 2 AP-I/IT to the engine
- land 2 AP-I/IT to the fuel tank
- 4 HE + another 2 AP-I/IT have only turned the wing orange/red in some spots and removed aileron. Wing tip is still attached.
I may have landed another AP to the other side of the plane.
Anyway, it was good gunnery, there were pieces falling off, I killed his engine and he burned to death. It looked super cool and realistic with flashes of hits all over his wing and nose.
I think he should have lost his wingtip, though.
But same burst with Ho-5 with less kinetic energy (IRL,. in game due to 100000 times folded nippon ballistics it retains speed way better than m-geschoss) 4 times smaller explosive filler and 10g less weight would have removed that wing for sure, maybe even twice (and in case of Ho-5 landing HE is easier due to better ballistics and tracers following the same path as HE).
I wouldn’t have to “land a burst”, I would have to click and with 2-3 hits it’d be over, wingtip would be gone with 1.
MG151/20 was actually TOO EFFECTIVE for quite some time to the point of being extremely unrealistic in some instances (2 shells removing entire tail? come on!).
I don’t want it “buffed”, I want weapons to be REASONABLY powerfull.
Right now everything hits like half of Mk108 shell.
Cannons were plenty powerfull before the last patch, I really did not need to try hard to score 6 kills in AD-4 because they were killing people just fine. Maybe it should have been tuned and fixed to be A BIT more powerfull and fragment properly so damage would be more reliable. But that’s it.
Instead every cannon in game is hitting harder than the cannon I considered overperforming.
And I’m not happy with this.
When you’re playing solo, you’re often getting into EXTREMELY risky situations to resolve the dogfight before you get 3rd partied. Sometimes this involves getting hit by some accident.
1 hit shouldn’t take you out of the fight.
But now it does because it will probably remove your wingtip/most of your tail, or create a black part of the wing which will absolutely BURY your turn rate.
And then what?
Run to AF and hope it solves the problem for you?
Some planes being sturdy (Fw 190 D9, G.56) and some being squishy (Spitfire Mk IX LF) created some interesting assymetric balance.
Spitfire has a ton of advantages. But it will NOT survive a head-on with me, while I may very well survive a 1-2 hits from Hispano (hard to land more with convergence and relative small size of Fw 190).
Nowadays I won’t survive any hits, so Spitfire may force a head-on and win or go 1:1 quite reliably.
I mean, I liked the “assymetric balance”. And now all of the sudden everyone has super-effective armanent, everyone has similar toughness, everyone has enough ammo for 5+ kills. So this turns into pure fight of performance, unless someone has .50 cals, then enjoy being the only guy who can’t score kills in 1 short burst.
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Oh and one more thing - this is a single 13mm bullet with around 40g mass and 1,7g TNT equivalent (maybe it was 2, but it looks like 1)
and in protection analysis:
MGs with HE filler are way too powerfull too. 2 Berezin bullets will ruin your day, and 1 MG131 bullet is enough to seriously affect the lift of your wing.
EDIT: Left of your wing → Lift of your wing, lol.