The thing is, MG151/20 is dealing tons of damage.and maybe we should be toning down the damage overal to reasonable levels, still way better than historical (and maybe buffing some.ridiculously low HP plane parts) and fixing some shells that are laughably underperforming (AP, SAPI, incendiary) instead of power creeping everything up to ridiculous levels?
Probably more a product of pinpoint aiming with mouse without any of the stress (physical, emotional) an actual pilot would have that will influence his/her aim, nor any atmospheric disturbances to trajectory (wind, air pressure, etc).
We should also see that the game is 16v16 and if one could realistically only kill a few enemies with a single ammo load to balance the above against real world performance, then many people would still be alive at the end of the 25 minute timer… not very preferable either.
Then there’s also that nobody is afraid of their lives, so people would just furball a lot more when damage is a lot less. This is a direct byproduct of not doing much damage (need longer time on target) as well as not being immediately punished for doing dumb.
I believe overall the skill level will go up when guns do more damage because the game is FAR less forgiving. Just something everyone has to adjust to. I for one really like it, but there are others I know who despise it. It seems to really divide the playerbase (again), or at least some part of, because from what I read most people are in favor of this change. Most people also agree that MG151 needs to be brought up to the same level too (me included) give it less fragments and more direct damage to what it hits.
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the problem for me is that the mg151 feels so downgraded from before. Yesterday had Tu2 tanking 100 20mm shots (air targets belt), while I was using the stealth 13mm since I was testing things. When I was near the 100 shot I managed to making a fire after I was focusing shots on the engines. Just never had stuff like this before. I would understand if it was the 13mm since they are trash, but I could clearly see the tracing shots of the 20mm going in the plane several times and getting the famous “Hit” and “Crit”. as for the other 2 30mm cannons yeah they are still the same as always. If you can suggest what I am doing wrong or which ammo belts should I use in order not to let that happen again because it’s a straight up bs, I would GLADLY accept them since I seem not to be able to do anything about them.
Why the hell are you using stealth MG131?
Use HE belt, it has no tracers (there is a bug that I reported around 5 months ago and no action has been taken) and since 13mm MG HE is Nukereal Shatter right now, it rips a wing off Bf 109 with 6 bullets.
Dunno, I just use the Air belt on the MG151, Night on the MK108, and Air on the MK103. For the MG131 I use IAI which does quite a lot of damage now.
Bomber you nearly always have to go for the engines or wing.
The tracer rounds of the MG151 are not a good indication where you are shooting because they have a different trajectory than the HEI… it’s always been like that.
People furball because they furball, not because they sre “not afraid”. Furball is caused by bad aim and attempts at turnfghting and dodging in every plane possible, even if said plane is absolutely not made for turnfighting.
And if your team is super bad - so be it. You may lack performance just as much as you lack ammo to win.
And it’s fine. Taking a plane with less ammo is a tradeoff.
Wirh 6 Shvak shells ripping off a wing and 4 ripping off a tail post my proposed nerf, and assuming you hit only 20% of your shots, and it takes on average 8 shells hittimg to down a target due to damage being spread (which means 0,3s of accurate firing at a target!) you’d still be able to kill around 6 guys in Yak3U . Pretty good if you ask me.
MG151 RIGHT NOW needs 2 HE shots for a tail and 4 shots for a wing (on average). With 2 cannons on Fw 190 D9 and with 2 MGs that while very strong, hit different parts of plane, lets assume you need only 5 HE shells on target on average. Sounds OK?
Now, to land these HE shells with 2 cannons on average you’ll have to fire 2,5 AP/IT shells.
Now, your ballistics are horrible and tracers do NOT match the HEI. Lets assume you land 16% of shells only because of that.
So for a kill you need 47 shells, which allows you for 10-11 kills.
And while it may sound awesome, lets take a look at what D9 is completely incapable of: defeating the enemy from below. It just will not be able to reverse any Soviet, Beitish, Japanese aircraft unless they are played horribly. 3U can and will do that with ease while also featuring 30+m/s climb down low. And I know they are different BR, but I’m talking about “common opponents at their respectice BR”. D9 may try to run and dive, but if cought at 1100m while climbi g after landing, it will get caught even by italian fighters unless he bolts for the AF.
And regarding time to kill - to fire 7,5 shells Fw 190 needs 0,32s. Which means it has worse time to kill on average than Shvak after getting nerfs I’m asking for and after the tail is buffed to 50% stronger.
And if we count all the misses from horrible ballistics time to kill gets so much worse for Fw 190.
So as you can clearly see, even if Shvak got nerfed (and tails got buffed) it would still work better than MG151/20 + MG131 do right now and I don’t think there are many people claiming D9 or F8 are not well armes. Which is kinda ridiculous and shows how much nuclear shatter is overperforming.
I recommwnd uni belt for MK108 - night is all self-destruct which sometimes makes a difference.(long range head-on spam, hehe).
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Or prehaps just be patient and wait for Real-Shatter to be applied to the MG-151/20
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Flew Spitfire Mk IX LF. INSANE firepower. Short bursts took planes apart. Stealth belt, so of course I had to land HE, but once it struck - oh boy, gg.
Type 99 Mk II seems to hit even stronger, sometimes even 1 shell was enough to rip a wing or tail off.
Type 99 Mk II has strong 30mm HEF vibes. Only 30mm HEF has 3 times the filler and 2,6 times the mass.
Oh well.
MK108 makes 0 sense now. And German sacrifice of ballistics for more explosive filler that resulted in M-geschoss makes absolutely 0 sense and really hurts German planes. Even with real shatter, MG151/20 will be just another super-hard-hitting cannon, only with BY FAR (not slightly, BY FAR) the worst 20mm ballistics and 66% HE best belt.
Once again - if 20mm worked like in game, Germany would just go with their early HE-T shell with around 4g of PETN and voila. Of course it would still fly worse than Ho-5 or Shvak because “reasons”, but whatever.
The only downside? 3s self destruct, but I doubt I’d hit anyone with 3s of flight time (over 1200m). Without self-destruct it would probably contain 4,5g of PETN, which would be even funnier. If only Gaijin took the nice amount of PETN in the fuse into consideration - 0,6g actually).
They are ok, but I rather have MG151 than Hispano’s… they are too sketchy, and I have had many “hispano moments” with them where you need to blast the enemy several times before getting the kill and just getting hits/crit before. Specifically on tanky US stuff. Play a bunch more games with them)
I guarantee you they are nowhere near MG151 when it comes to consistency to put stuff down. Just 40-50% of truly viable rounds in the Air/Stealth belt. Kinda always been like that tbh
This is how it works for me:
With Spitfire Mk IX LF I find myself tailing people all the time while they are doing funny maneuvers.
In such situations landing 2 HE to the same spot becomes tricky as hell.
Add convergence into the mix.
Add the fact you have 50% AP/SAPI (AP, but explodes after 30cm XD) in your belt.
But when I take shots like I usually take in Fw 190, which means - enemy is mid turn while I dive from above (you know, the failed dodge vs diving enemy, common as hell) or enemy turns at lower speed and I can pull lead easily, or enemy is stalling/slow, or enemy is ambushed etc. - then it’s pop and gone,
My main issue with Spitfire gunnery is my own eagerness to take shots that I would have never see in German planes, firing while pulling 10G turn or firing while enemy is jerking around, of course it takes more firing then but with MG151/20 I would have never scored those shots in the 1st place.
F.e. I wasted quite a lot of ammo on Yak-3U. But I was firing at him in a high speed dogfight at low alt - situation that is generally better avoided even in Ta-152H (it can be won, reliably, but GL doing that with enemy not so far away). I nick his wing, his tail. with single shells. When I finally catch him mid sustained turn, he’s dead in miliseconds.
And it totally should be like that… there no reason someone should survive a full burst into the profile of the plane.
MG151 would also make short work of such a shot really, as should everything else.
You know that’s no true right, with any plane you’ll find yourself in such situation quite often. Yes sure spit can pull harder than most planes, it’s also much slower. So yea you’re right you can pull shots in a high G turn because it’s a spitfire, but if the spit had MG151s you’d be able to pull those same shots too because you’re able to pull enough lead on the enemy… that doesn’t quite have a lot to do with the cannons I’d say.
No, not with “any plane”.
To find myself in such situation I have to be in a plane that can stick to someone’s tail safely.
And this applies to planes that have superior turn rate.
Spitfire also has superior dive speed and high speed controls.
And high velocity guns.
Which means you’re taking waaaay more difficult shots without even thinking about it.
MG151/20 often requires RIDICULOUS amounts of lead due to waaaaay longer flight time. And don’t know about you, but I often work enemy’s energy down to manageable levels if they are good at dodging.
In Spitfire?
Oh boy, I stick to enemy’s tail and I won’t go away until they are dead.
And such situations result in slowest kills in general.
I am not afraid to follow them to low alt, because MUH MANEUVRABILITY.
Meanwhile In Ta-152H I would be finding another target, then BnZing guy from above, getting way easier shots.
And BTW I’m not saying MG151/20 doesn’t kill people. I’m saying other cannons do it better and with way superior ballistics so they do it way easier too.
IMO too easy. When single Type 99 Mk 2 shell rips P-47’s wing in half, it’s not really funny, I like it when I have to unload for more than 0,1s :P
But you describe exactly the difference between how you fight people in superior energy fighters as opposed to fighting people in slower more maneuverable planes… one you drain them until they are an easy pick, and the other you glue on their 6 until they are dead… in either case if he goes straight down, you wouldn’t follow unless its safe to do so. You don’t want to end up with a fast plane flown by someone who doesn’t hit the elevator at the first opportunity bnz’ing you to hell in a spitfire either, just because you got greedy and followed someone to the deck…
It’s no secret that planes which are very maneuverable are more forgiving when things get difficult, just look at the BRs for slow but agile planes. Not really because those planes are good when facing a good opponent in a fast plane that can just energy fight you forever, but mostly driven by the average thought process of people where they “turnfight everyone”. Even after all these years you still see people turnfighting A6Ms in P51Ds… it’s not going to change, and they do the same in most cases against a spitfire, or re2005 for that matter.
I’d love to see your server replay of a single shell doing that. It’s probably a burst with 2 cannons shooting some 6-ish shells instead of a single 1.
I could just as well show 1 taps with MG151s… like this or this
Had a bunch more “Click” videos, but you know, streamable expires and I haven’t uploaded much for a while now
And what did I tell you about tails being ridiculously fragile? You fired 6 shells + 4 bullets (and Bredas have real shatter), but in this game it’s possible even 1 shell ripped it off, while it absolutely shouldn’t.,
Wings are WAY more resilient in general.
No cannon in game should rip a tail in a single hit, even MG151/20.
And my point about Spitfire was - people play it in a way that leads to sub-par firing solutions. In a good firing solution, Hispanos rip planes apart with ease.
And do a 1-tap like this:
shell to the toughest part of the wing (wing root). Wing snaps like a twig.
https://streamable.com/60rszs
It was 1 hit to the wing, my guns had 500m convergence, you can see only 1 “fireball”, if I hit the fuselage - it must have been with MGs for next to 0 damage.
And P-47’s tail, same battle:
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/101583531400531932
MGs to the engine, then 1 shell strikes the tail, then we wait for damage to register, snap. No 2nd impact, it would be impossible because I was NOT pulling lead on a guy passing me by at 420km/h and my cannons fire at 450 RPM, you can do the math :P You can’t see tracers because every shot after the one that struck the tail missed.
You can watch server replay if you have any doubts, I’m kinda ashamed of my lack of situational awareness, but with cannons like these… :)
EDIT: And 1 with “reasonable damage” - 1st shell hits fthe flap. Blows off entire flap and makes wing root orange - remember, it did not hit the wing itself and at that angle most fragments would have gone through the flap and out. 2nd shell to the wingroot makes wing root black and part of wing next to it tiny bit damaged.
3rd shell that hit almost undamaged part of wing rips the wing apart.
Server replay:
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/101440075197766635
EDIT: I’ll shoot some more P-47’s but it seems 1 shell to the middle of the wing may do the job.
EDIT: Did some custom battles, was able to 1-shot 3 planes in a row. In the process of killing several planes it took me 1 shell to rip Il-2 wing, 1 shell to rip P-51D wing and 1 shell for F4F - the last one at least was “early war” and MAYBE not as tough.
Generally - hit middle of the wing? Insta-snap.
700m shot, 1 shell lands, 130g total, 16g filler, entire tail gone:
Yup, it’s great!.
People need to stop flying like Kamikaze pilots and committing to head-ons and early fur-balls down low.
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Ssshhh… Im enjoying all these fighters diving down low and thinking my Hispanos do no damage and thus im easy to fight.
Ya are right man, it is insane.
Its really frustrating how 20mm cannons are and specially some german planes are pretty much solely dependant on them
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