Re-Doing Japanese Tech Tree

Before we go forward, im basing this on that Japanese Tank Gun Penetration gets corrected. AP shells in this game are extremely underperforming and it makes Japan suffer the most.

Type 94 37mm
Type 94 APHE (0.7kg at 575m/s)
43mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
18mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Type 98 37mm
Type 1 APHE (0.726kg at 704m/s)
56mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
24mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Type 1 37mm
Type 1 APHE (0.726kg at 800m/s)
64mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
28mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Type 1 47mm
Type 1 APHE (1.49kg at 810m/s)
82mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
38mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Type 2 57mm
Type 1 APHE (2.7kg at 810m/s)
96mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
47mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Type 3 75mm
Type 1 APHE (6.56kg at 668m/s)
97mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
51mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Tokku Ko APHE (6.615kg at 683m/s)
118mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
53mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Type 5 75mm
Type 1 APHE (6.56kg at 824m/s)
131mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
67mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Tokku Ko APHE (6.615kg at 850m/s)
161mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
70mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

90mm JGSDF / Type 61
M318A1 APBC (10.91kg at 914m/s)
222mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
88mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Type 5 105mm
Type 2 APHE (16kg at 1000m/s)
264mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
112mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

Tier 1
Ha-Go Model 1936 - Reserve (6.5mm MG, Type 94 gun)
Ha-Go Model 1937 - Reserve (7.7mm MG, Type 94 Gun)
Ha-Go Model 1938 - Reserve (7.7mm MG, Type 98 Gun)
Type 89 I-Go - 1.0BR
Type 97 Chi-Ni - 1.0BR [STARTER PREMIUM]
Type 97 Chi-Ha - 1.3BR
Type 98 Chi-Ho - 2.0BR [PREMIUM]

Tier 2
Type 98 Chi-Ha Kai - 2.3BR
Type 2 Ho-I - 2.7BR
Type 1 Chi-He - 2.7BR
Type 2 Ho-I (57mm) - 3.3BR [PREMIUM]
Type 3 Chi-Nu - 3.7BR (Tokku Ko APHE)

Tier 3
Type 4 Chi-To (57mm) - 3.7BR [PREMIUM]
Type 3 Chi-Nu Kai - 4.3BR (Type 1 APHE)
Type 3 Chi-Nu II - 4.7BR (Tokku Ko APHE)
Type 4 Chi-To - 5.0BR (Tokku Ko APHE)
Type 4 Chi-To Late - 5.0BR (Tokku Ko APHE)

Tier 4
Type 5 Chi-Ri II - 5.3BR (Tokku Ko APHE, fixed autoloader mechanism and reload speed)
O-I Heavy - 5.3BR
STA-1 - 6.0BR (M318A1 AP / M71HE)
STA-2 - 6.0BR (M318A1 AP / M71 HE)
STA-4 - 6.0BR (M318A1 AP / M71 HE) [PREMIUM]
STA-3 - 6.3BR (M318A1 AP / M71 HE)

Note: STA-1 came in 1956, STA-2 in 1957, STA-4 in 1959, STA-3 in 1960 and Type 61 was introduced in 1961. M431 HEAT is also called Type 70 HEAT meaning it came into service in 1970 meaning only Type 61 could use it. US decommissioned M82 APCBC in 1950 due to being obselete and the M318A1was much superior either way. There are no sources to support that Japan used anything other than these 3 main rounds. M318A1 AP , M71 HE and Type 70 HEAT, meaning historically speaking the STA’s should not have APCR or the M348 HEAT, just the APBC and HE rounds.

Tier 5
M47 Patton - 7.3BR (M348 HEAT)
Type 61 - 7.3BR (M431 HEAT)
Type 61 (B) - 7.3BR (M431 HEAT) [PREMIUM]
STB-1 - 8.0BR (L28A1 APDS)
Type 74C - 8.3BR (Type 91 HEAT)
Type 74E - 8.7BR (M735 APFSDS)

Note: Japan recieved a single example of M47 Patton in early 1950’s and since M431 didnt enter service with US until 1965, theres no way it would have M431, therefore only access to M348 HEAT

Tier 6
Type 74F - 9.0BR (Type 93 APFSDS)
Type 16 FPS - 9.0BR (M735 APFSDS) [PREMIUM]
Type 74G - 9.3BR (Type 93 APFSDS)
Type 16 - 9.7BR (Type 93 APFSDS)
STC-1 - 10.0BR (JM23 APFSDS)
STC-2 - 10.7BR (JM23 APFSDS)

Note: Type 90 composite is Ceramic based, making it similar to C-Tech on Leopard 2’s after 1987. Since Leopard 2A5 hull is 750mm LOS composite offering 450mm KE, Type 90 hull which is 580mm LOS should offer only 350mm KE, Turret with 670mm LOS should offer 400mm KE (making its turret invulnerable to JM23 at 250m). Yes this would be armour nerf for Type 90’s.

[STC-1 from 1982. Appears to be using all steel hull, doesnt have autoloader, uses indegenous japanese 120mm smoothbore gun, DM33 didnt come until 1987, The turret composite is different and the mantlet is bigger compared to the final product]

[STC-2, 2nd prototype which came in 1986. Has some external differences to the production Type 90 but the main difference is that it still uses Japanese indigenous 120mm smoothbore gun instead of the Rheimetall one and since its still 1986, There is no DM33/JM33, just DM23/JM23.

Tier 7
Type 90 - 11.0BR (JM33 APFSDS) [Original 1st gen thermals]
Type 90B - 11.0BR (JM33 APFSDS) [Newer, 2nd gen thermals]
TKX - 11.7BR (Type 10 APFSDS)
Type 10 - 11.7BR (Type 10 APFSDS)

Ho-Ri Prototype is fake basically and should be replaced with STA-4 as premium
Ho-Ri Production should be replaced with Either Ho-Ri II (Chi-Ri II chassis Tank Destroyer with Type 5 105mm gun) since at least that was the chosen model for production, OR Ka-To which uses existent Na-To chassis with Type 5 105mm gun. 6.7BR.


+1. This is fairly similar to my Japanese tree rework I posted on the subreddit a while back (which I might make into a suggestion on here):

+1. Definitely would like to see the tech tree improved. I think both (Ho-Ri II and Ka-To) should be added, the main question is how and where.

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Wondering what the CTWV (ICV), CCV and CTWV (RCV) are, would you mind explaining?

Of course!

CCV - Close Combat Vehicle
It was a prototype light tank/AA(radar never made or mounted sadly) from 2009. 40mm CTA gun firing APFSDS.

CTWV – Common Tactical Wheeled Vehicle
Prototype reconnaissance/combat light vehicle based on the Type 16’s chassis, revealed only a couple months ago. Two variants.
ICV – Infantry Combat Vehicle

  • Unmanned turret

RCV – Reconnaissance Combat Vehicle

  • Manned turret

Everything else remains the same across the two variants: 30mm Bushmaster II, thermals, LRF and LWR, 570hp (100km/h), etc.

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-1. While adding new vehicles is great, nerfing nerfing existing isnt good.

Overall its a buff when you fix penetration, reload times and 90mm heat post pen effect is getting buffed according to devs

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Well, i see no Old/New comparsion, so its kinda hard. But… Like, look at type 61 with these suggestions. Losin APHE, getting 20 more Pen on solid shot (basically garbage) and going 0.6 br higher will make a quite bad vehicle - dead. Same with all STAs. Leaving them with garbage solid shot will kill them. Nerfing Type 90 armor even further - bad.

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M318A1 would get 28mm more at 0 degrees but its 60 degrees would get a huge buff to 88mm penetration at 60 degrees, youd penetrate Panther upper plate armour at distance of 1750 meters after such change

And? Its 90mm solid shot (bad damage) at 7.3 BR. So why i should care about panther, which is 6.0

Actually the M318A1 APBC damage is good. Its more damage than HEATFS and youll be able to use M318A1 against tanks which you would of normally had to use HEATFS.

Not good at all. And yeah, if i need pen - i will use HEAT. If i need damage - i will use APHE (In current state of tanks). These buff would be a nerf actually. And yeah, again, you suggest to move it 0.6 br higher. So new solid shot β€œbuff” would be useless again

All tanks were moved up, usually i would say 7.0BR but everyhting went up in game now hence the 7.3

I’m curious where the performance given to the Japanese APHE rounds comes from.

What does this mean?

Type 74 (C) can fire L28A1 APDS, Type 75 HESH and M735 APFSDS which was introduced with the Type 74 (B). Type 91 HEAT-FS was only introduced on the Type 74 (E), replacing the Type 75 HESH on the Type 74 (E) and all further variants.

If this post is extremely strict with the ammunition that the 90 mm equipped tanks can use, then it also has to be strict with the ammunition of the remaining tanks.

Im aware of the shells used by Type 74 but its an exception for better BR placement. But it could also be done in the strict manner

STB-1 - 8.3BR (L28A1 APDS)
Type 74C - 9.0BR (M735 APFSDS / HESH)
Type 74E - 9.0BR (M735 APFSDS / HEAT)
Type 74F - 9.3BR (Type 91 APFSDS / HEAT)
Type 74G - 9.7BR (Type 91 APFSDS / HEAT)

Essentially the Chi-Ri autoloader has a rack for 2 shells visible in the image with a 3rd one loaded in the breech. Right now the first 2 shots are reloaded in 3.3-4.3 sec (depending on crew for some reason) when it should be 2.5 seconds delay per shot, period. After the 1st shot is fired, you should have 2 more shots at autoloader speed, not just 1 like it is now in WT. Then once its single shot stage the Chi-Ri reload is 7.7 seconds instead of 5.9 seconds like it should be since thats what every other 75-76.2mm armed US/German/UK tanks have with their heavier shells.

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I just tested and it is not like this in WarThunder.

The Chi-Ri starts with two ready rounds and one in the breech. Only after 3 shots have been fired does the reload of the Chi-Ri slow down. That is, firing the round that is already loaded on the breech, and then loading the two rounds on the autoloader in quick succession.

In other words, it is already working exactly like you are describing.

It is 6.66 seconds. The Chi-Ri has a reload of 3.33 seconds with a maxed out crew and ace qualification (shot frequency of 0.3), and gets a 2.0x multiplier when the ready rack is empty.

As for the Penetration…
Non Capped AP rounds deform so getting exact 0 value is very difficult. Calculating angled penetration where the non capped shells dont deform is easy tho.
I just used the AP slope modifiers from WWII Ballistics: Armour and Gunnery and since AP rounds dont deform at 60 degrees, i also used the 0 value for those rounds if the AP didnt deform at 0 degrees eighter.

According to this Blog (SENSHA: [WT] Type3 Chi-Nu), the Type 1 Tokku Kou AP on Chi-Nu which replaced the normal Type 1 AP had a muzzle velocity of 683m/s when fired from the Type 3 75mm Gun. Penetration at 500 yards was 100mm at 0 degrees (609m/s) meaning at 683m/s the vertical penetration is 118mm. Then its just matter of using wwii ballistics to calculate the sloped penetration, and the figures i get match the claim that the shell could penetrate armour of sherman frontally up to 600 meters.

The Type 5 75mm Gun also uses this Type 1 Tokku Kou APHE shell which weighs 6.615kg and has velocity of 850m/s. Using Demarre Equation i took the fact that the shell penetrates 100mm of vertical armour at 609m/s and calculated the penetration at 850m/s which comes to 161mm at 0 degrees. Again for this shell i also calculated the sloped penetration using wwii ballistics AP slope modifiers

Slope Modifeirs from WWII ballistics

M318A1 was easy since i have the vertical penetration even after deformation handed to me on a platter, so it was just a matter of calculating the sloped penetration.

As for the 37mm guns and 47mm guns, the US already did the testings for those with velocities at different ranges, so it was just a matter of using those 0 values and calculating the sloped penetration

Yeah it should be 2.5 sec between shots in autoloader interval and crew should have no effect on it

Expert crew gives it 3.7 sec, should be 2,5 sec no matter what

There is nothing that could replace the Ho-Ri Production. The Ka-To is equivalent to the SU-100P, but with a worse gun, the same found on the Ho-Ri Prototype, and would hang around 6.0. The Ho-Ri II would likely hang around 5.3 since its armour is, relatively, pathetic compared to either of the in-game Ho-Ri. The hull would be 75 mm, the same as the Chi-Ri II, while the casemate would be 125 mm, easily penetrated by tanks as low as 3.3. Its saving grace would be the main gun and the versatility that would come with its rear-mounted twin 20 mm and the retention of the hull-mounted 37 mm; especially if the rumored smoke shell for it is ever added.

Type 5 105mm
Type 2 APHE (16kg at 1000m/s)
264mm @ 0m (0 Degrees)
112mm @ 0m (60 Degrees)

If you fix the penetration on Ho-Ri Production, youd be penetrating T-55A and T-62 upper plate armour

Ka-To would fullfill that same thing with the gun but at 6.7BR since its glass cannon