Rafale rage

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@I MiikaL I@live

My experience with a MICA equipped M2K has fuelled my calls for correct balancing of the Rafale, it’s blatantly overperforming and you continue to claim it is artificially nerfed, when the features missing are also missing from competitors (ECM, Stealth features, Meteors, advanced AGMs, ALCMs, etc)

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/mrmjVxlrZzhf
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/eBoYz36PxnO5
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/JceCbxskUoCC
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/fVxq4GpLjbPO

but yeah MICA is overperforming, by missing stuff that are reported currently

@Morvran_

But this is the entire point of the thread.

We cant even get SAL Brimstone 2s. Let alone Mode 2 (which is the LOBL mode for the Brimstone) because “its too OP”

This is the problem. The hypocrisy. The one sided nature of buffs and additions.

Heck. I just want the Typhoons cockpit to be unsquished and actually finished. 0 balance impact at all for 99% of players. But instead Rafale and MICA EM buffs and nothing for anyone else

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/bLxmFLOWazFh
is the only openned Report i see about Brimstones, and is not Flame one’s, can you eventually send me the link?
(the report goes from the exact thing i saw too,… but there is not much information on how the brimstone is FnF with a Laser+IOG system, so’im searching more information on that currently)

i’ve seen about the proximty fuse though:
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/x1rwDAcNP6Li

[Morvran]

@Cpt_Bel_V

Community Bug Reporting System

Likewise report for smokeless AMRAAMs

@Cpt_Bel_V

Community Bug Reporting System

Similar reports in for AMRAAM

@Cpt_Bel_V

Community Bug Reporting System

Likely the same for the C5

@Cpt_Bel_V

Community Bug Reporting System

Already in game . Its stupidly OP.

@Cpt_Bel_V

is the only openned Report i see about Brimstones,

Most are internal ones by Gunjob. So you wont see them

[FeetPics]

@I MiikaL I@live

So this debunks your claims, whereas the EFT and Gripen face consistent avionic and FM nerfs/bugs that gaijin chooses not to address, while consistently buffing the rafale despite it’s abnormally high winrate

This is because the Eurofighter flight model is based on a clearly defined set of requirements and performance metrics. In-game it meets and exceeds those requirements.

The Gripen FM is also based on publicly available information that has been interpolated. For instance there is AIAA article with turn rate graph and no values except JA-37 for reference. There is actually reason to believe that developers interpolation of this graph was based on old JA-37 flight model which also indexed the Gripen turn rate to be 1-2 degrees per second too high.

Rafale flight model is based on snippets of airshow HUD footage and by trying to cherry-pick the best numbers possible that would benefit performance. The HUD footage that is used shows a STR of around 20 degrees per second at 400kts.

The same set of HUD footage shows a bleed rate of around 21 kts per second for 8.8G turn from 590kts down to 480kts. There is also no indication that cutting throttle and using airbrake is part of the 2018 Rafale demonstration; the afterburner is visible in pretty much any external view of the 2018 flight demonstrations for the flat turns.

Currently in game, even with max dry thrust and airbrake deployed and on 30 percent fuel (higher than fuel load at this point in the actual demo), the plane does not bleed speed at the same rate.

The most recent weight reduction is based on a crash report of 2 planes where weight is specified and based on French bug reporter making argument that the lower weight plane is the more accurate one even though both planes are identical. They hand waived the weight discrepancies between the two planes by claiming the pilot in the heavier plane was potentially the size of “The Mountain” from Game Of Thrones, the lighter plane was piloted by the Elf On A Shelf, and that France can’t make a drop tank with a consistent amount of unusable fuel. Oh and that live ammo is used for an airshow because it’s labeled as a “tactical demonstration.”

[Morvran]

@FeetPics

This is because the Eurofighter flight model is based on a clearly defined set of requirements and performance metrics. In-game it meets and exceeds those requirements.

It doesnt.

In all but high alt and high speed STR. Its underperformimg

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@Morvran_

Already in game . Its stupidly OP.

not as described by Bug report, but yes in some extend.

@Morvran_

Most are internal ones by Gunjob. So you wont see them

so i can’t inform myself on how the Brimstone works.

i found that one, considered not a bug (obvious because of how the author asked for it,…)
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/40v3XAGUY7sR

it explains a bit better how the FnF should work, and i understand better the guidance MBDA spoke about:

2023%20BRIMSTONE%20datasheet.pdf

Which requires the game to create a Radar seeker, instead of IR (like found on AASM SBU-64).
so the Brimstone could have been “ARH+IOG+Laser”, instead of the current “Laser+IOG”

but the problem is about how the missile works,… instead of going for the ground at Inertial point given to Brimstone prior to launch, the missile self destruct mid-air,…

it might be possible that Gaijin don’t want to make that happen, to avoid people becoming angry at Gaijin for FnF mode.

But i agree it should be introduced,… however, this requires to add things to the brimstone launch.

Prior to launch:
1- Set GPS point - open the map, and middle click on map // Pointing camera at target area with Laser being “Off”

Spoiler

Like this:

Or This:

but not This:

(note: Laser indication says laser is ON)

2- Set target Type - by having a circling slector button (for exemple, like the Weapon system)
“Artillery”
“Pillbox”
“MG”
“SAM”
“LRM”
“Tank”
Ect. and circling

then Launch Brimstone, which then perfoms as FnF (unless you activated Laser prior to launch)

So yes, i can definetly see this working in game.

[Morvran]

The problem is. They wont add MWW. They refuse to add MWW. You can read why here:

Tornado GR.4: Tenacious Tonka

The “big fin” gets an upgrade with the Tornado GR.4! Today, we’ll be taking a look at this new top rank British strike aircraft that will let you rain Hellfire (or in this case Brimstone) down on your opponents! Tornado GR.4: A Strike Aircraft for Great Britain at Rank VIII At a glance: A modernized Tornado GR.1 with more advanced ordnance. Improved LITENING targeting pod with Gen 2 thermals. Equipped with Dual-Mode Brimstone (SAL) Semi-Active Laser guided precision weapons and Paveway IV…

Do note, that the reasons given are mostly wrong, its just hyperbole for sake of justifying not adding it.

But its overdue. Heck, the AH-64E likely never used JAGM-MR. But its been given it purely because it has IIR and the JAGM is MMW

[FeetPics]

It meets and exceeds them if tested at weight specified in ESR-D. Reports that it underperforms are based on testing at higher weights than specified in MOD documents and MOD documents make conscious effort to account for weight increases of the plane.

EF-2000 currently has the best flight model in the game from a pure 1v1 dueling / BFM perspective. This has been proven pretty consistently in RB and even SB. It also has access to pretty ridiculous “AoA button” due to how Gaijin has interpreted spin recovery function / manual pitch override function from IRL to in game.

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@Stona_WT

Developer comment: We’d like to mention that Brimstone will only have semi-active laser homing (SAL) mode in the game. The fire and forget mode and the active radar homing seeker will not be available for a few reasons. The primary reason is that this seeker utilizes the “lock-on after launch (LOAL)” mode, this mode allows the weapon to be fired in the general area of a target without needing any actual precision from the operator, who can remain at long range in complete safety.

We feel weapons that can be used outside of the direct line of sight of the target without needing any preliminary reconnaissance or direct user targeting are not currently workable for the game. Weapons such as Brimstone, AGM-114L cause a particular problem and similarly to other ATGMs that have lock after launch modes like the Spike and AJ.168 will not have such abilities in the game.

These weapon types present several issues all at once, they require no challenge to use effectively and have no counterplay options for those being attacked. The attacker can operate outside of the range of any anti-air system in the game, Brimstone is also immune to smoke, so this won’t help either.

ARH modes for air-to-ground weapons won’t be workable until natural and artificial interference to these guidance systems can be implemented, as there are no electronic reconnaissance and electronic warfare systems in the game. Adding these weapons now would allow them to operate perfectly without any counter, which we don’t want to do. Additionally, at closer combat ranges ATGMs with ARH cannot distinguish between allied and enemy targets, and this would lead to a large amount of accidental teamkills as well.

it’s already overdue as AASM SBU-64 already works with LOAL, as the IR lock is made only in terminal range.

so we can press on bug reports, with AASM as exemple to show and explain that FnF should now be added to Brimstone.

also the Tornado GR.4 was implemented quite long time ago, while the Rafale is much more recent in comparison.

i guess it should be enough to go through.

the only problem is that Brimstone is ARH, not IR

@Gunjob :ain’t this possible?

@Cpt_Bel_V

add things to the brimstone launch.

Prior to launch:
1- Set GPS point - open the map, and middle click on map // Pointing camera at target area with Laser being “Off”

Spoiler

Like this:

Or This:

but not This:

(note: Laser indication says laser is ON)

2- Set target Type - by having a circling selector button (for exemple, like the Weapon system)
“Artillery”
“Pillbox”
“MG”
“SAM”
“LRM”
“Tank”
Ect. and circling

then Launch Brimstone, which then perfoms as FnF (unless you activated Laser prior to launch)

[Morvran]

at the moment. SAL Brismtone 2 is gunna be a chore to argue for

Brimstone 2

With all nations now recieving top tier SAMs and notable buffs being applied to the KH-38MT. It is time for the Tornado Gr4 and all 3 Typhoons to get a weapon system better than the Hellfire missiles (SAL Brimstone 1s) they currently have. It is time they get an actually viable A2G weapon for top tier GRB because at the moment 15km SAL weapons vs 40+ km SAMs just doesnt work. Ideally we would finally get MMW to give true FnF capability to the Brimstone 1s, but as that seems unlikely anytime soo…

[Военный_Красный]

Playing with my Eurofighter, I’ll fire a C5 at 6km from a Rafale, it turns instantly and makes a notch in my missile as if it were nothing, it turns quickly and fires a mica, I make every possible notch movement, mica still hits, once with a Su30SM R77 at 3-4km from a Rafale, it does the same thing to me that it did when I was in the Eurofighter, that thing must have been 14.7

[Cpt_Bel_V]

if cant’ make use of FnF, there is low interest of a brimstone 2.

[Morvran]

In regard to defending in the EFT. That is entirely the fake BOL Nerfs

It's time for Gaijin to finally reverse the ahistorical nerf to BOL countermeasures [Poll]

With the Leviathans Update introducing Imaging Infrared (IIR) anti-aircraft missiles in the form of IRIS-T and AIM-9X it is time for the Gaijin to revert the ahistorical nerfs that they made to BOL countermeasures and restore their effectiveness to at least pre-nerf levels. poll Wait what on earth are BOL countermeasures? BOL is a type of countermeasures (chaff / flare) dispenser which fits into the rear of a missile launch rail, allowing a large number of countermeasures to be carried in space…

We have micro chaff in the BOL and it doesnt work at shorter ranges.

though defending against a MICA within 10km is extremely hard no matter what

[Morvran]

Brismtoen 1, 2, 3 and Spear-3 all have the same MMW seeker.

But at hte moment Im just arguing for the SAL weapon with 200% increased range as MMW is unlikely to be added anytime soon

[My_Little_Porny]

And FnF

[Morvran]

Thats the MMW.

it probably wont be added for a while.

So SAL Brimstone 2s are probably the most likely thing we can get anytime soon

[My_Little_Porny]

Isn’t MMW just a fancy ARH capable of hitting desired parts on a tank? They could just add a placeholder ARH that roughly hits the tanks

[Morvran]

The FnF seeker is entirely ARH.

We tried and failed to argue for a placeholder IIR seeker for them. But apparently they dont ever add anything that is ahistorically modeled…

Looks at BOL

[FeetPics]

This isn’t only an Air RB problem.

What Makes The Rafale Absolutely Uncontested In Sim

This is good video explaining the situation in Sim. And it’s not by me.

[themadseventeen]

Big 3 mains when a minor nation finally gets something competitive

[Shepherd515-live]

Victim card