R-60Ms need to go!

[tripod2008]

@Nowel

btw the all the aim 9L calculations are completely wrong

Look I’ll get around redoing the chart with the relevant missiles, it just takes time. They haven’t been updated since the original R-73 dev server.

@Nowel

so all that advantage that youre claiming of the r60m over the aim 9L is based on a false assumption

The R-60M is worse than the -9L in most situations, only at very short range is it better. The issue is that there are no Fighters with the -9L below 12.0 (apart from a handful of Sea Harriers, Tornados, and exported F-4 /F-104s but none in the US tree for example) where the R-60M sits as low as 10.7 / 11.0 (MiG-21BIS / MiG-23M) so can see down to 9.7 /10.0 of which are armed with various Rear-Aspect Sidewinders and Early Sparrows.

And as such are comparatively trash since for the majority of airframes without flares, your kind shot out of luck since attempting to force a head on results in eating a missile you can’t dodge.

@simbadumba

r-60m’s are a non issue for anything that has flares.

Only if you see the launch, Gaijin happens to also have it out for any airframe that has them in sufficient quantity to deploy them continuously as long as it isn’t Russian.

[Nike Ajax]

@tripod2008

Only if you see the launch

If you don’t have situational awaraness thats completely your own problem. (and the other player definetly deserves the kill)

[Nowel]

@tripod2008

The R-60M is worse than the -9L in most situations, only at very short range is it better. The issue is that there are no Fighters with the -9L below 12.0 (apart from a handful of Sea Harriers, Tornados, and exported F-4 /F-104s but none in the US tree for example) where the R-60M sits as low as 10.7 / 11.0 (MiG-21BIS / MiG-23M) so can see down to 9.7 /10.0 of which are armed with various Rear-Aspect Sidewinders and Early Sparrows.

dude, there are lots of figters that have aim 9L and better missiles below 12.0… yet youre just bitching about the r 60m, there are 12 non r60m fighters below 12.0 and bear in mind that im only counting for non premium figters if i count attackers the number is much higher…

[tripod2008]

@simbadumba

If you don’t have situational awaraness thats completely your own problem. (and the other player definetly deserves the kill)

If I spent the the game flying solely defensively, or intercepting lone targets in a one on one that will inevitably lead to either me not doing as much as i could have for the team, and so outlast my team leading to me getting dogpiled, and needing to deal with a number of often superior airframes.

@Nowel

there are lots of fighters that have aim 9L

I literally have the list in front of me;

|F-104 |F-104S.ASA(11.3, ITA)|
|F-4 Phantom II |Kurnass 2000(11.3, ISR) · F-4EJ Kai Phantom II(11.7, JPN)|
|F-14 |F-14B(12.0, USA)|
|F-15 |F-15A(12.3, USA ) · Baz(12.3, ISR ) · F-15J(12.3, JPN )|
|F-16 |F-16A(12.0, USA) · F-16A ADF(12.0, USA) · ▄F-16A ADF (12.0, ITA )· ␗F-16A MLU(12.3, CHN ) · F-16AJ(12.0, JPN ) · F-16C(12.7, USA) · Netz(12.3, ISR ) · Barak II(12.7, ISR )|
|Tornado(11.3, GB) |Tornado F.3 · Tornado ADV(11.3, ITA)|
|Other| JA37D(11.3, SWE)|

Below 12.0 that list looks like;

|F-104 |F-104S.ASA(11.3, ITA)|
|F-4 Phantom II |Kurnass 2000(11.3, ISR) · F-4EJ Kai Phantom II(11.7, JPN)|
|Tornado |Tornado F.3(11.3, GB) · Tornado ADV(11.3, ITA)|
|Other| JA37D(11.3, SWE)|

By my count there are 6 AIM-9L (and export sales variant) equipt fighters.

So many aircraft in the US tree, right? Doesn’t help that they are practically all minor trees(hooray for matchmaking).

@Nowel

yet you’re just bitching about the r 60m

Yes, because it is a unique capability(The true counterpart would be the AIM-9P-4, but can’t have nice things, right), and thus sticks out as an issue. and if you need a longer range try the R-23T, it even outranges the USN Sidewinder derivatives.

You could even get uptiered from the 9.3 ~10.0(guess the BR of my most played line up) bracket and not see a single AIM-9L on a fighter while seeing a full team of R-60Ms due to only top BR airframes in any match being count limited for balance reasons.

[Nowel]

SO youre casually forgetting about the other all aspect missiles on those br… you have another 3 french planes with magic 2 (irccm btw) and the phytons 3 which all are much better than the r60m so no the r60m isnt an unique capability.

@tripod2008

You could even get uptiered from the 9.3 ~10.0(guess the BR of my most played line up) bracket and not see a single AIM-9L on a fighter while seeing a full team of R-60Ms due to only top BR airframes in any match being count limited for balance reasons.

a 9.3 cant even see a fighter with r 60m… the lowest is the bis in arcade… they do see aim 9l form tho, from the us attackers.

@tripod2008

So many aircraft in the US tree, right?

and ? just because the us doesnt have any doesnt mean that " there are no Fighters with the -9L below 12.0", the us does have its own unique capabilities they keep being the only ones with maws or the ones with the lowest tier fnf armament.

[tripod2008]

@Nowel

a 9.3 cant even see a fighter with r 60m… the lowest is the bis in arcade.

Do you not actually know about the BR reduction mechanic? If you have a single aircraft in you lineup that is +.3 above the others, the BR gets reduced by .3. This also applies to single aircraft lineups as well.

@Nowel

they do see aim 9l form tho, from the us attackers.

Subsonic attackers like the A-10 and A-7 can be easily outrun, and launches can be baited if significant care is taken. they can also be overwhelmed.

@Nowel

just because the us doesnt have any

Its not because they don’t have potential options, but balance reasons, take the F-4E for example it could be split (unfranken-planed into an F-4D / F-4E Early & F-4E Late) and moved up and receive the AIM-9P-4 / -P5, -9L or -9M, F-4J, replaced by the F-4B and similarly moved upwards.

@Nowel

the only ones with maws

The F-111A was the first plane to be equipt with a (passive) Missile Warning System IRL, and with the coming update the GR.7 will be getting its own.

And there are still aircraft mounted IR Jammers(e.g. AN/AAQ-8) & A2G radar that the Su-25T / Su-39 have that aren’t seen anywhere else, outside a single German event Aircraft.

@Nowel

the lowest tier fnf armament.

The A-4E (M) is similarly equipt to the A-4E, and in the Israeli tree at the same BR (8.7 / 9.0), and fractionally higher the Hunter F.58 (9.3 / 9.7) has the lowest F&F missile, lower than the A-10 / A-7D as well.
And on that note the US tree is still missing the A-4M & AV-8B+ among other exported variants that just never turned up for some reason.

Also F&F is trash in comparison to SALH guidance since they balanced how Contrast seekers work (by erroneously turning them into Correlation seekers ), Further they basically incorrectly implemented how Linear Shaped Charge warheads(Walleye I , -II & MARTEL), and HEAT fragmentation capabilities work, on top of heavily curating the variants and configuration of stores for no apparent reason .

Is it any added surprise that Targeting pods have been (deliberately) omitted entirely below 12.0 apart from a single 70 USD premium option.

[Nowel]

@tripod2008

Do you not actually know about the BR reduction mechanic? If you have a single aircraft in you lineup that is +.3 above the others, the BR gets reduced by .3. This also applies to single aircraft lineups as well.

then dont use vehicles with a higher br… by that stupid logic you can see aim 9m with a 9.3 if you take it alongside of a 11.7

@tripod2008

Subsonic attackers like the A-10 and A-7 can be easily outrun, and launches can be baited if significant care is taken. they can also be overwhelmed.

so? you can easily decoy r60m with even rockets

[tripod2008]

@Nowel

they dont use vehicles with a higher br… by that stupid logic you can see aim 9m with a 9.3 is you take it alongside of a 11.7

An example would be if you take a 9.0 and a 9.3 aircraft as your lineup. The BR of the lineup is taken as 9.0.

Its not even me taking advantage of the mechanic, it also impacts ODLs with a single airframe, and with the availability of backups they even get a second chance.

On the other hand I take a full lineup of what is basically the baseline & -.3 if the Tech tree line doesn’t have an option at that BR.

@Nowel

so? you can easily decoy r60m with even rockets

and degrade the all important flight performance of an aircraft for a just in case, or give up stations that could take bombs for rockets for the chance I get focused which either causes uneven loading or drastically cuts into earnings, its not like Gaijin offers downloaded stores where they would otherwise be available, even though it would be nice.

[Nike Ajax]

@tripod2008

If I spent the the game flying solely defensively, or intercepting lone targets in a one on one that will inevitably lead to either me not doing as much as i could have for the team, and so outlast my team leading to me getting dogpiled, and needing to deal with a number of often superior airframes.

Nowel_:

You don’t need to fly defensively to have situational awaraness. I can get 4 kills and play aggressively while also avoiding tunnel vision. Its not war thunder’s problem that you don’t have basic situational awaraness skills. This is what is expected to happen - if you can’t have situational awaraness while being aggressive, you can’t be as aggressive. Simple as that.

[AlvisWisla]

Weird of you to call all flares in War Thunder Russian…
R-60Ms are one flare, always have been.
R-60M no-escape range for an AB target is 1km from the rear aspect.
AIM-9L is 2.3km from the rear aspect.

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@tripod2008

I literally have the list in front of me;

|F-104 |F-104S.ASA(11.3, ITA)|
|F-4 Phantom II |Kurnass 2000(11.3, ISR) · F-4EJ Kai Phantom II(11.7, JPN)|
|F-14 |F-14B(12.0, USA)|
|F-15 |F-15A(12.3, USA ) · Baz(12.3, ISR ) · F-15J(12.3, JPN )|
|F-16 |F-16A(12.0, USA) · F-16A ADF(12.0, USA) · ▄F-16A ADF (12.0, ITA )· ␗F-16A MLU(12.3, CHN ) · F-16AJ(12.0, JPN ) · F-16C(12.7, USA) · Netz(12.3, ISR ) · Barak II(12.7, ISR )|
|Tornado(11.3, GB) |Tornado F.3 · Tornado ADV(11.3, ITA)|
|Other| JA37D(11.3, SWE)|

Below 12.0 that list looks like;

|F-104 |F-104S.ASA(11.3, ITA)|
|F-4 Phantom II |Kurnass 2000(11.3, ISR) · F-4EJ Kai Phantom II(11.7, JPN)|
|Tornado |Tornado F.3(11.3, GB) · Tornado ADV(11.3, ITA)|
|Other| JA37D(11.3, SWE)|

By my count there are 6 AIM-9L (and export sales variant) equipt fighters.

(you forgot those Attackers like, that are doing better so much better as fighter thanks to those Aim-9L)

[tripod2008]

@AlvisWisla

Weird of you to call all flares in War Thunder Russian…

Caliber of the actual flare is far less important than the chemistry it uses(due to blackbody radiation profiles depending on the reaction’s enthalpy and emissivity of the material ), and how closely it is matched to the engine.

Since the pyrotechnic content and quality of the reaction isn’t modeled(due to said abstraction), and larger calibers are arbitrarily made stronger for reasons, it benefits those that use larger flares(why?). let alone where the delineation actually lies anyway is entirely arbitrary.

Flares

@AlvisWisla

R-60Ms are one flare, always have been.

Kind of useless knowledge to have if the aircraft being shot at doesn’t have access to flares in the first place e.g. F-105, F-4C, etc.

@AlvisWisla

R-60M no-escape range for an AB target is 1km from the rear aspect.

Kinematic performance is entirely dependent on Closure rate, IAS, the ASE and Altitude. It has nothing to do with afterburner settings. Missiles become far more effective as altitude increases since Mach limits constrains aircraft significantly.

@AlvisWisla

AIM-9L is 2.3km from the rear aspect.

If you are any good at actually using aircraft longer shots are regularly possible even with the AIM-9B at higher altitudes.

@Cpt_Bel_V

you forgot those Attackers like, that are doing better so much better as fighter thanks to those Aim-9L

They were deliberately omitted from the list since everyone knows (and agrees) what is wrong with them, the issue is how to fix them; I personally would add air spawns(based on time to climb to an altitude depending on BR & Airframe class e.g Fighter, Bomber, Interceptor, Strike, Attack etc.); to all aircraft, spread the spawns across map edges, and spread objectives out to make high traffic routes to the objectives, and the start of the round less predictable.

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@tripod2008

the issue is how to fix them

Raising up BR due to AA abilities (which exclude Flight model abilities).

An A-10A can achieve 8 AA kills thanks to it’s Flightmodel differences at low altitude, lot of Flares/chaffs capacity and 4 Missiles far more useful than everything others can have, apart maybe R-60M,…

In the meantime, Gaijin reduced abilities of Minor Nations attacker that were added within that BR Range (Super Étendard: AS-30L & Magic-2 are missing), because they aknowledged the problem of A-10/A-6/Su-25 → they still are not solving it though,…

[tripod2008]

@Cpt_Bel_V

and 4 Missiles far more useful than everything others can have

The LAU-114 w/ LAU-105 dual rail can’t mount earlier Sidewinders, due to the plugs not being backwards compatible its the -9L, -9M or -9X only. and they already arbitrarily restrict the A-10A Early’s ability to carry / optimize its loading, since the racks not be able to be dual loaded, means an extra station is wasted.

An A-10 without missiles would probably sit somewhere around the 5.7~6.3 rating.

@Cpt_Bel_V

they still are not solving it though

We don’t yet know which way things are going to go when the the BRs get split up according to mode, so things may improve in some respects for Strike aircraft in general, though I can’t say for certain things are going to end up decompressed. There will certainly be Aircraft that lose out once it is implemented as per the roadmap.

[Beeschurger]

@tripod2008

An A-10 without missiles would probably sit somewhere around the 5.7~6.3 rating.

Me in my duster desperately trying to shoot down A-10 at 5km alt launching mavericks

[vohai2003]

Maintain proper seperation is all you need to do to counter R-60.
I’m in a jet that has only R-60M. As an advice from a player that score several kills of it, 2 km is the proper seperation to an enemy on your 6 to completely counter the R-60. If the enemy is higher than you, you may need more seperation, up to 5 km. I scored several kills in BnZ style at the distance of 5 km on a verticle dive.