R-60Ms need to go!

[tripod2008]

@Nowel

A higher search volume only helps you at slaving the missiles

It is computed using area of an Arc; and based off the size of the Gimbal , and lock on range cutoffs, it has nothing to do with the FoV.

It basically represents the space where a potential launch could come from, and thus the defensive pilot needs to continuously scan for a launch, assuming that it is a conserved quantity so a pilot ca only scan so much so quickly, the larger the volume, the less often any particular spot is polled, so the more likely you are to not see a missile launch.

Its much harder to defend from a missile that you don’t see coming, which is why its a somewhat useful comparison.

[Nowel]

@pyroraptor841

That’s pretty much what I meant. Could’ve worded it better. R-27 has the 10kn more total thrust but shorter burn time and a very low top speed (Pretty sure the max Mach number is a soft speed cap) S-TEMP burns longer but AFAIK accelerates slower than the R-27R but to a substantially higher top speed and thus more range too.

The r27 has a total of 10KN of extra impulse, but it doesnt not accelerate faster, not even close.

In one you have a 25 kN burner that weights 250kg and have a larger diameter and in the other side you have a 33kn burner for a missle that weights 200kg… just for a better comparative the r 511 accelerates as fast as the r27…

[pyroraptor841]

@Nowel

A higher search volume only helps you at slaving the missiles, after it launches it becomes a disadvantage

To a point, IMO search volume is a bad measurement for IR missile performance. It exaggerates long range and high FOVs but doesn’t account for IRCCM, FOVs, etc. Its much better for comparing IRSTs and/or Radars.

@tripod2008

Its much harder to defend from a missile that you don’t see coming, which is why its a somewhat useful comparison.

Seeker volume isn’t very relevant to this. 9L has much less seeker volume but I can launch it from any angle at 4km away. R60 has much higher seeker volume, but it has constrictive range and gimbal limits. You can’t really pull off the same side-aspect shots a 9L can.

@Nowel

The r27 has a total of 10KN of extra impulse, but it doesnt not accelerate faster, not even close.

Fair enough, I wasn’t even thinking about mass, just adding up the total impulses

[Cpt_Bel_V]

Higher top speed? That means nothing,…
Some people have made some video, from custom setups(thanks to CDK) the 7F stands ahead of the S.530D until it reached 35km of range, which is slightly under the max range of both missiles.

And long range engagements todays means more time for ennemy to react to it.

→ 5G more than 7F,… yes at high speed states, you have 5G more than 7F → also means that it have to accelerate 1st of all.

→ the seeker is currently less useful than 7F, and 7F also will recieve the Buff - as per Devserver Patchnote

" The AIM-7F/M, R-27R/ER, RB.71, Skyflash (all variants), Aspide, R-530F/D missiles are now less prone to switching to a target appearing in the direction different from the direction of the last target."

All Fox-1 are getting those buffs
So it nullifies the point.

Locking is subpar to 7F (30km for S.530D, 40km for 7F)

And maximum range (7F have 100km, vs 40km for S.530D)

Soooooooo,… i’ll keep saying it -->S.530D is UNABLE to beat 7F unless you try to kill within 40km(max range) to 35km (range at which the 7F is going 2nd place)

[somebody_Else]

This thread has gone completely off the rails.

[pyroraptor841]

@Cpt_Bel_V

Soooooooo,… i’ll keep saying it -->S.530D is UNABLE to beat 7F unless you try to kill within 40km(max range) to 35km (range at which the 7F is going 2nd place)

50KM coming

Back on track, here’s why the R-60 despite theoretically having more ‘search volume’ is worse:

Its limited gimbal limit and very limited range means that a side-aspect shot isn’t as likely to connect. The 9L can be launched from further and hit at any angle because it has a wider gimbal and more range to correct its lead. Thus, the 9L can actually come from a much larger area than the R-60M.

Search volume simply doesn’t consider missile performance, only the seeker. You could give the R60 100x the lock range but if the motor and fins can’t get it there it’s totally irrelevant.

[Cpt_Bel_V]

Wow wow wow,… 50 km for S.530D,… fine by me → how much buff for 7F btw? +10? +20? And R-27ER? Same?

You show what you want to see, but you compare 2 things, therefore you must show the whole picture for comparison,…

And for R60M, if you’re unable to decoy it effectively, you MUST learn how to decoy any Missiles,… here is a batch of videos that might helps you:

How To Flare IRCCM Missiles | War Thunder

Ultimate Guide To Dodging Any Missile | WarThunder Tutorial

[Nowel]

@tripod2008

It is computed using area of an Arc; and based off the size of the Gimbal , and lock on range cutoffs, it has nothing to do with the FoV.

It is still meaningless, specially the rear aspect values as a r60 will never being able to hit anything over 3 km away let alone 7,4 km which he is using to calculate the spherical sector…

[Shootsave]

this is the most interesting post i have seen in a long while

[Nowel]

@pyroraptor841

Search volume simply doesn’t consider missile performance, only the seeker.

It doesnt take the maximun lock angle of the missile either, which on the r60m is limited to 20º half of that from the aim 9L.

[tripod2008]

@pyroraptor841

The 9L can be launched from further and hit at any angle because it has a wider gimbal and more range to correct its lead. Thus, the 9L can actually come from a much larger area than the R-60M.

Many aircraft don’t have access to the AIM-9L, but the -9D /-G /-H or -9E /-J /-P and as such lose out on a Side and front aspect sectors due to the minimal performance in those zones, and lower available pull.

And basically outside of the F-4 with its access to sparrows, there is no real way to stop an R-60M armed interceptor from closing in missile range below 10.7~11.0 where the MiG-21BIS and MiG-23M reside.

Also it doesn’t consider if the Shooter in question has a positive Closure rate or not since that drastically increases the kinetic range of the missile.

@Nowel

It is still meaningless, specially the rear aspect values as a r60 will never being able to hit anything over 3 km away let alone 7,4 km which he is using to calculate the spherical sector…

Its useful for a defender to know how quickly they need to scan for a launch, and where to focus on if they are task saturated, since if the polling rate is lower than the time of flight you could miss a launch if timed correctly.

Also for the R-60M the values that were used was 2km (A-A) and 5km(R-A)

@Nowel

It doesnt take the maximun lock angle of the missile either, which on the r60m is limited to 20º half of that from the aim 9L.

That value is erroneous, and has an acknowledged bug report, the AIM-9G / -H / -L /-M’s ASE should be 22.5 degrees.

[Nowel]

@tripod2008

Also for the R-60M the values that were used was 2km (A-A) and 5km(R-A)

5km is still way out of range of the r60m so it is still meaningless…, btw the all the aim 9L calculations are completely wrong, so that chart is pointless

@tripod2008

Its useful for a defender to know how quickly they need to scan for a launch, and where to focus on if they are task saturated, since if the polling rate is lower than the time of flight you could miss a launch if timed correctly.

it usefulness is pretty much situational which only matters in really porly aimed shots where you dont take into account the guidance delay, too close up shots and poorly lead shots, not to mention that the aim 9L gimball is the same, 45º, so all that advantage that youre claiming of the r60m over the aim 9L is based on a false assumption…

@tripod2008

That value is erroneous, and has an acknowledged bug report, the AIM-9G / -H / -L /-M’s ASE should be 22.5 degrees.

it is still 40º in game so unless they fix it is it twice as large than the r60m

[S-200VE_Vega]

r-60m’s are a non issue for anything that has flares.

[tripod2008]

@Nowel

btw the all the aim 9L calculations are completely wrong

Look I’ll get around redoing the chart with the relevant missiles, it just takes time. They haven’t been updated since the original R-73 dev server.

@Nowel

so all that advantage that youre claiming of the r60m over the aim 9L is based on a false assumption

The R-60M is worse than the -9L in most situations, only at very short range is it better. The issue is that there are no Fighters with the -9L below 12.0 (apart from a handful of Sea Harriers, Tornados, and exported F-4 /F-104s but none in the US tree for example) where the R-60M sits as low as 10.7 / 11.0 (MiG-21BIS / MiG-23M) so can see down to 9.7 /10.0 of which are armed with various Rear-Aspect Sidewinders and Early Sparrows.

And as such are comparatively trash since for the majority of airframes without flares, your kind shot out of luck since attempting to force a head on results in eating a missile you can’t dodge.

@simbadumba

r-60m’s are a non issue for anything that has flares.

Only if you see the launch, Gaijin happens to also have it out for any airframe that has them in sufficient quantity to deploy them continuously as long as it isn’t Russian.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@tripod2008

Only if you see the launch

If you don’t have situational awaraness thats completely your own problem. (and the other player definetly deserves the kill)

[Nowel]

@tripod2008

The R-60M is worse than the -9L in most situations, only at very short range is it better. The issue is that there are no Fighters with the -9L below 12.0 (apart from a handful of Sea Harriers, Tornados, and exported F-4 /F-104s but none in the US tree for example) where the R-60M sits as low as 10.7 / 11.0 (MiG-21BIS / MiG-23M) so can see down to 9.7 /10.0 of which are armed with various Rear-Aspect Sidewinders and Early Sparrows.

dude, there are lots of figters that have aim 9L and better missiles below 12.0… yet youre just bitching about the r 60m, there are 12 non r60m fighters below 12.0 and bear in mind that im only counting for non premium figters if i count attackers the number is much higher…

[tripod2008]

@simbadumba

If you don’t have situational awaraness thats completely your own problem. (and the other player definetly deserves the kill)

If I spent the the game flying solely defensively, or intercepting lone targets in a one on one that will inevitably lead to either me not doing as much as i could have for the team, and so outlast my team leading to me getting dogpiled, and needing to deal with a number of often superior airframes.

@Nowel

there are lots of fighters that have aim 9L

I literally have the list in front of me;

|F-104 |F-104S.ASA(11.3, ITA)|
|F-4 Phantom II |Kurnass 2000(11.3, ISR) · F-4EJ Kai Phantom II(11.7, JPN)|
|F-14 |F-14B(12.0, USA)|
|F-15 |F-15A(12.3, USA ) · Baz(12.3, ISR ) · F-15J(12.3, JPN )|
|F-16 |F-16A(12.0, USA) · F-16A ADF(12.0, USA) · ▄F-16A ADF (12.0, ITA )· ␗F-16A MLU(12.3, CHN ) · F-16AJ(12.0, JPN ) · F-16C(12.7, USA) · Netz(12.3, ISR ) · Barak II(12.7, ISR )|
|Tornado(11.3, GB) |Tornado F.3 · Tornado ADV(11.3, ITA)|
|Other| JA37D(11.3, SWE)|

Below 12.0 that list looks like;

|F-104 |F-104S.ASA(11.3, ITA)|
|F-4 Phantom II |Kurnass 2000(11.3, ISR) · F-4EJ Kai Phantom II(11.7, JPN)|
|Tornado |Tornado F.3(11.3, GB) · Tornado ADV(11.3, ITA)|
|Other| JA37D(11.3, SWE)|

By my count there are 6 AIM-9L (and export sales variant) equipt fighters.

So many aircraft in the US tree, right? Doesn’t help that they are practically all minor trees(hooray for matchmaking).

@Nowel

yet you’re just bitching about the r 60m

Yes, because it is a unique capability(The true counterpart would be the AIM-9P-4, but can’t have nice things, right), and thus sticks out as an issue. and if you need a longer range try the R-23T, it even outranges the USN Sidewinder derivatives.

You could even get uptiered from the 9.3 ~10.0(guess the BR of my most played line up) bracket and not see a single AIM-9L on a fighter while seeing a full team of R-60Ms due to only top BR airframes in any match being count limited for balance reasons.

[Nowel]

SO youre casually forgetting about the other all aspect missiles on those br… you have another 3 french planes with magic 2 (irccm btw) and the phytons 3 which all are much better than the r60m so no the r60m isnt an unique capability.

@tripod2008

You could even get uptiered from the 9.3 ~10.0(guess the BR of my most played line up) bracket and not see a single AIM-9L on a fighter while seeing a full team of R-60Ms due to only top BR airframes in any match being count limited for balance reasons.

a 9.3 cant even see a fighter with r 60m… the lowest is the bis in arcade… they do see aim 9l form tho, from the us attackers.

@tripod2008

So many aircraft in the US tree, right?

and ? just because the us doesnt have any doesnt mean that " there are no Fighters with the -9L below 12.0", the us does have its own unique capabilities they keep being the only ones with maws or the ones with the lowest tier fnf armament.

[tripod2008]

@Nowel

a 9.3 cant even see a fighter with r 60m… the lowest is the bis in arcade.

Do you not actually know about the BR reduction mechanic? If you have a single aircraft in you lineup that is +.3 above the others, the BR gets reduced by .3. This also applies to single aircraft lineups as well.

@Nowel

they do see aim 9l form tho, from the us attackers.

Subsonic attackers like the A-10 and A-7 can be easily outrun, and launches can be baited if significant care is taken. they can also be overwhelmed.

@Nowel

just because the us doesnt have any

Its not because they don’t have potential options, but balance reasons, take the F-4E for example it could be split (unfranken-planed into an F-4D / F-4E Early & F-4E Late) and moved up and receive the AIM-9P-4 / -P5, -9L or -9M, F-4J, replaced by the F-4B and similarly moved upwards.

@Nowel

the only ones with maws

The F-111A was the first plane to be equipt with a (passive) Missile Warning System IRL, and with the coming update the GR.7 will be getting its own.

And there are still aircraft mounted IR Jammers(e.g. AN/AAQ-8) & A2G radar that the Su-25T / Su-39 have that aren’t seen anywhere else, outside a single German event Aircraft.

@Nowel

the lowest tier fnf armament.

The A-4E (M) is similarly equipt to the A-4E, and in the Israeli tree at the same BR (8.7 / 9.0), and fractionally higher the Hunter F.58 (9.3 / 9.7) has the lowest F&F missile, lower than the A-10 / A-7D as well.
And on that note the US tree is still missing the A-4M & AV-8B+ among other exported variants that just never turned up for some reason.

Also F&F is trash in comparison to SALH guidance since they balanced how Contrast seekers work (by erroneously turning them into Correlation seekers ), Further they basically incorrectly implemented how Linear Shaped Charge warheads(Walleye I , -II & MARTEL), and HEAT fragmentation capabilities work, on top of heavily curating the variants and configuration of stores for no apparent reason .

Is it any added surprise that Targeting pods have been (deliberately) omitted entirely below 12.0 apart from a single 70 USD premium option.

[Nowel]

@tripod2008

Do you not actually know about the BR reduction mechanic? If you have a single aircraft in you lineup that is +.3 above the others, the BR gets reduced by .3. This also applies to single aircraft lineups as well.

then dont use vehicles with a higher br… by that stupid logic you can see aim 9m with a 9.3 if you take it alongside of a 11.7

@tripod2008

Subsonic attackers like the A-10 and A-7 can be easily outrun, and launches can be baited if significant care is taken. they can also be overwhelmed.

so? you can easily decoy r60m with even rockets