And this negates that the OTOMATIC is meant to fight armored vehicles in attack, not just self-defense how?
If it is an SPAA, it shouldn’t be able to fight tanks in attacking roles, going off your idea of what an SPAA is, so having unlimited APFSDS doesn’t make sense.
Which is an arbitrary decision that should be rescinded.
It is not, it is because of arbitrary restrictions on what a “secondary feed” is. The Gepard could hold full APDS if it wanted, there was no technical limit to that, it just didn’t by doctrine. The OTOMATIC has an auxilary magazine that stores 3 APFSDS, of which Gaijin can just treat as part of the ready rack because it’s part of the autoloader. The 2S38’s ready rack is the autoloader’s magazine, and you get to choose the next round within that autoloader. I don’t know what is so different between that and the OTOMATIC.
I just straight up do not get what is soooooo different about the OTOMATIC’s ready rack versus the 2S38.
2S38: Its ready rack is its autoloader magazine, and you get to choose what shells to fire (whether only in game as a game design choice, or irl a computer allows some rounds to go before others).
OTOMATIC: Its APFSDS is stored in its autoloader as an auxiliary magazine, which is meant to allow the gunner to choose whether he wants to shoot AA or AT rounds.
The OTOMATIC literally just has an actual method of switching out which shells you want to fire. If anything, it is one of the only autoloader vehicles in the game that should be allowed to switch ammo types to easily.
That is a feature, but it doesn’t change its not marketed as a multi-role vehicle.
It being a SPAA has never in my explanation been the reason why it has limited or unlimited Anti-tank munitions.
Its been a qualifying requirement for when they apply restrictions on vehicles with secondary anti-tank feeds.
Thats an argument that it should be treated more like a belt. Not a reason why it should get restrictions of secondary feed.
OTO has 2 feeds. One is secondary for anti-tank munition, that is one thing that is very very clear in terms of differences.
If you want ammunition selection restrictions on vehicles that should have them, like clip fed guns and in cases like the 2S38 where there are rounds in the feed mechanism seemingly too late to change, then i 100% they should overhaul ammunition system in game to accurately model the OTO, CV9040, 2S38, Amx-50 (TOA100) and many many more.
I am also in the opinion that the OTO has a poorly modeled compromise to model the extra 3-round mag.
But i dont think the restrictions on the Gepard and OTO translate at all to the 2S38.
And both of those feeds replenish from a hull ammo stowage, which has no limit on type of shell for its full quantity. It’s an arbitrary restriction which Gayjin made because people didn’t like getting auto cannoned by the OTOMATIC. But when it’s a Soviet premium the devs could care less about the same restriction. So it’s time for it to be removed.
I am very aware of the arbitrary restriction, but that doesn’t mean one should apply the same restriction to vehicles that dont have dualfeed/secondary feed
“providing the Army stand-off capability against armored targets on the ground,” being “able to penetrate the frontal armor of a Soviet T-62 tank at 1,500m. Effective range against an armoured personnel carrier is greater than 2,200m.” now means it is only marketed as an SPAA?
The mechanic allowing for the switching of ammo once it’s in the ready rack is functionally a secondary feed, but ok.
You cannot choose the next round in a belt, you can with an auxiliary magazine. Does that mean that all tanks without an OTOMATIC-like system should be unable to choose the ammo type they want once ammo is in the ready rack? No? Then the “secondary feed” is not an issue.
Uh you do know the Gepard, OTOMATIC, and 2S38 all have separate reasons for contention in this topic, right?
Gepard - The limit is entirely based on doctrine, no technical limitations.
OTOMATIC - Actually has a functioning “choose your ammo” system, unlike most of the tanks in game, but that for some reason means it shouldn’t get to have more than 12 APFSDS?
2S38 - Shouldn’t be able to choose its ammo until all 26 rounds of its ready rack are expended, but it gets to and the OTOMATIC doesn’t.
Dont see how advertising extra capabilities would detract from advertising it as a spaa.
Its really not.
That should be a limitation on a lot of vehicles, yes.
These two are similar to the point it makes sense why the OTO has similar limitation.
Both have dedicated storage for ready anti-tank munition. And while Gepard has a doctrinal reason for why its not in the main belt, the OTO advertises a similar configuration anyways.
Yes the 2S38 along with many other vehicles should realistically have ammunition selection limitations. I have advocated this since this start.
Both OTO and Gepard make sense why they are the way they are. And it also makes sense why they havent realistically modelled ammunition loading, selecting and other mechanisms because Warthunder just does not have the tools to do so and like ive said since the start, would require a major overhaul for it to modeled realistically
It would mean that it is meant more for just anti-air duties?
Switching ammo in ready rack → changes the order of ammo within the autoloader
OTOMATIC’s auxiliary magazine in the autoloader → changes the order of ammo within the autoloader
I don’t agree, I think allowing for the switching of ammo is incredibly important from a gameplay perspective, which is why the OTOMATIC having its APFSDS limited by a real-world ammo switcher is illogical.
The OTOMATIC has dedicated turret storage, but non-dedicated storage in the hull (i.e. the hull storage can hold both AT and AA rounds).
I don’t see why they couldn’t implement it, or why they could just let the OTOMATIC have unlimited APFSDS just like in the 2S38.
Yes it does. As long as the OTOMATIC is going to be artificially restricted, there is no reason for any other vehicle to not also be artificially restricted the exact same way.
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OTOMATIC’s auxiliary magazine in the autoloader → changes the order of ammo within the autoloader
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*changes feed source
Either happens magically because Warthunder and it cant do it. Or IRL it cycles to the correct shot
And optimal ready rack configuration allready exists for every vehicle in the game, including the OTO.
Its avertised as an extra feature. What the vehicle is actually used for is up to the people who buy it. Which was noone iirc. In other words its pitched as a SPAA so its probably a SPAA.
I mean that is certainly a thing to advocate for. But other vehicles in the game have similar limitations to the OTO, and as it then logically follows, it also got the limitation.
The logic for why things are the way they are is very simple. If you want Warthunder to break with that logic and give only the OTO full Anti-tank munitions, thats fine, but its also is inconsistent with vehicles like the Gepard.
I think you will find that ive advocated for ammo to be reworked to make hull storage usable.
Why they cant is that there is no system in place to realistically model the ammo feed and storage. Ammo is treated as 1 pool, but here its 2 ammo pools interacting where there should be 2 ready racks
You will ignore why OTO is and 2S38 isnt after ive pointed out why many many times:
Secondary feed
Exactly, its why the Gepard is, and the 2S38 isnt.
The artificial restriction is applied the same way across every vehicle in the game:
It has secondary feed for some ammunition type
criter and it then has to follow that its a SPAA.
In game 2S38 fullfills to my knowledge neither criteria
The M3 & M3A3 use a dual feed mechanism, but nether has access to a pure belt even though it should technically have a one round autoloader and instantly swap between loaded belts.
Again, the reasoning for the Gepard’s 40 APDS limit is due to doctrine, but the OTOMATIC’s is due to Gaijin not recognizing that APFSDS ammunition can be stored in the hull. Those are two different reasons.
And I’ve said that functionally the OTOMATIC and 2S38 have the same ready-rack-ammo-switching feature, one is just a hardware implementation and the other is either software or an ahistorical gameplay feature.
Except the Gepard being restricted does not make sense as its APDS limit is based on doctrinal use, and the 2S38 should be limited because it (likely) does not have a ready-rack-ammo-switcher feature IRL.
Of which the Gepard does not, it has a secondary ammo box of AT ammunition for doctrinal (not technical) reasons. The OTOMATIC also does not have a secondary feed (it has an auxiliary magazine) as the AT ammunition is stored within the autoloader and is treated as part of the autoloader in descriptions of the system.
Of which the 2S38 is an SPAA irl.
In game it fulfills none, but at the very least should fit the latter criteria.
Functionally, the 2S38 can switch ammo even when ammo is already in the autoloader (idk if this is a real life capability of the vehicle or just a gameplay feature). The OTOMATIC just has a hardware version of the switching-order-of-autoloader-ammo feature that the 2S38 has, which is why I point out the APFSDS limitation on the OTOMATIC makes no sense. I mean why limit the vehicle that actually has the capability to switch ammo, but not the vehicle that afaik can’t irl.
there is a large difference, the otomatic should only be able to shoot 3 apfsds before reloading, for this limitation we need a dual feed mechanic, having an otomatic firing 29 apfsds in a row is just as unrealistic as having an 11 rounds limit.
Technically, or they could just model the two feeds to shoot out of the same barrel (not entirely sure how to the gun code works btw). Although, shooting the APFSDS would be a much better option than having only 12 APFSDS rounds since the OTOMATIC is meant to be fighting armored vehicles (and having such a small number of AT rounds goes completely against the vehicle’s purpose).
the autoloader currently has a 29 rounds capacity, so it can only shoot 29 in a row before reloading if they allow to storage ammo on the hull.
the primary role of the otomatic always was as an anti air, not at fighting armored vehicles, it is pretty clear that the apfsds would have been used as self defense, seen how it has a 3 rounds secondary feed for it. BTW even the name states that it main role, OTOMATIC is an acronyms for OTO main anti-aircraft tank for interception and combat.
