Put the E50 and the E75 paper tank designed by german engineer to replace Panther 2 and tigre 10.5 fake paper plan

You don’t say. I’m just stating my opinion, same as you are.

The main problem with the Panther II and Tiger II 105 we have in game is that they are an amalgamation of different proposals, so rather than being paper vehicles in the traditional sense, they are Gaijin’s creation basically. I don’t like that, and would much prefer a more grounded speculative approach. That said, since they are already in the game, they don’t have crazy powercreep features, and look fun to play, I would like them to come back. But if they were being made today for the game, I would say no, just make regular E-50 and E-75 instead. And the same goes for the Ho-Ri, which is complete fantasy in its current form in game, but I don’t want it to disappear because it’s not game breaking and it gives the Japanese tree something it would otherwise completely lack.

Keep parroting that, maybe it will sound convincing the 200th time.

The lineup system, the damage model, the BR system, all of these are differences between the two games which are much more impactful than just which vehicles are in the game. If WoT had only historical vehicles, it would still be a less interesting game than WT to me because of the arcade damage model and the lack of lineups.

That’s a complete non sequitur. What do paper vehicles and premium modifications have in common? Gaijin already tried to implement premium modifications, I might remind you. Fortunately they failed because of community pushback.

You already have them.

Selective realism is truly a beautiful thing. Loader reloads rotated turret without turret basket? I sleep. Rangefinder clips into the breech? Real shit! That’s where I draw the line, no sir. Lmao.

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You still fail to answer my question, marvelous. Another thing, The Ho-Ri in-game uses the 105mm it was going to be using irl.
The Production model of the 105mm is just a longer barrel which isn’t anything special. The one in the game was irl a wooden mockup however this was more or less likely what the final design would have looked like. Japan was slowly moving to better armoring their tanks ex: Type-5 Ho-Ru, Type-4 Chi-To, and Type-5 Chi-Ri. All have more armor compared to their predecessors. This is simply because Japan realized they were going to need better firepower to knock out the primary threat which is the Shermans had Operation Downfall been approved.

I already have, you simply don’t like the answer and are trying to frame it as objectivity. The reframing isn’t working, sorry to say.

The Tiger-Maus paper design has 100% of components that were built in metal IRL (and would be in fact more plausible than the Maus itself because it was much smaller and therefore likely able to actually move under its own power without falling apart).

So since your personal standard is “it’s okay if the planned component existed IRL” then by your own standard you would be okay with the addition of the Tiger-Maus. That is very good to know.

So you have no objections to the introduction of a Jagdtiger with the L/66 128mm PAK 44. It’s the same calibre, just a longer barrel version of the gun. That isn’t anything special, after all.

I’m very happy that we agree that the Coelian can come back.

Although with that said, you’re talking about the prototype. The one that is based on outright falsified data is the production variant.

True but irrelevant. Germany also had plans for 1946, USSR also had plans for the 1990s. Tomato, tomato.

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Well, you don’t want to understand me… I’ll be more precise, now they are facing tanks that never even remotely did.

I mean, Renault FT-17 faced the M1 Abrams. I dont see why we should care. Its certainly not a justification for paper designs being added.

Especially like an E-50, where the closest to that design i know existed is the Panther 2 hull and the eventual plans for the design long term.

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Haha you give ideas! Here people are throwing stones against their own roof. It’s crazy this community. 🤣

I mean they weren’t throwing rocks in Afghanistan, they were using immobilized Renoult FT-17 tanks.

And given the equipment situations are rarely fair, its not like this is that out there in terms of technology gaps.

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I don’t want more paper tanks.

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I would agree if they hadn’t added paper tanks before that are still in game. Paper tanks that are possible but didn’t happen due to lack or materials I feel like would fall under criteria to be added however tanks that are completely impossible shouldn’t be added. And these paper tanks could always just have a higher br than their irl counterparts. The E.75 could be at 7.3 or 7.7 around the Is4/Is6/Is3 br which could always balance out these vehicles. And don’t say realism as we have cold war ammunitions on early ww2 vehicles that never would’ve known that ammunition existed and we have ww2 tanks at the same br as cold war tanks.

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I want the GW Tiger then.

image

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Isn’t that one technically eligible anyway? The hull was built, the gun existed in metal already before the hull was developed. It was never assembled, but the same goes for other vehicles currently in game.

Both of those tanks are there just to fill the gap back in the day, there is no reason to add paper tanks like those to fill their gap since there are much better vehicle like the 90mm prototype Leo, also does the 105mm tiger 2 even need a replacement? The normal tiger 2h alr fullfill it role and is arguably better at the same br.

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There is currently a pretty big jump between German 6.7 and 7.7, with only the Kugelblitz and the Wiesel in between if you only look at tech tree vehicles. And really it’s only at 8.0 that you have a full lineup again.

Is this an especially egregious gap? No not at all. Minor nations have much more urgent needs to fill. However, the gap does exist and it definitely hasn’t been filled, nor will it ever, because of the fundamental philosophy switch between late war and post war. A Leo1 with a 90mm would be at least as good as the Ru and possibly better, for example. That’s not a replacement for either the Panther II or the Tiger II 105.

Germany simply wasn’t building AFVs of any kind between the end of WW2 and the beginning of the Korean War. So there’s nothing to add from that time period that was built in metal. That’s where the gap comes from.

The Tiger II 105 and Panther II are at 7.0, not 6.7. When they were moved up, they got their reloads buffed.

So what you have with the 105 is a better engine, a sixth crew member, a rangefinder, and a round that can overpressure, in exchange for no armour improvement and a slower reload (but no longer a crippling one). It’s a pretty interesting tradeoff package, I think. Not too strong, not too weak, somewhat situational.

Frankly, these vehicles are so common in that BR range that bringing them back would not change much in terms of actually encountering them. It would just give people access to them, which is cool, in my book.

And there’s no real replacement other than the E-50 and E-75, which were also never built in metal.

The E-75 was never built in any capacity, so to add it would be the antithesis of what war thunder actually is. While Gaijin needs to fill Germany’s BR gaps, there are many other vehicles that Germany needs infinitely more than yet another WW2 heavy tank that is visually almost identical to the Tiger II and will probably play exactly the same in practice.

We don’t even have the Leopard 1A2, 1A3 or 1A4 yet, let alone the myriad of other (generally lesser known) gun carriers that the Germans were using in WW2, and you want paper vehicles now?

And these paper tanks could always just have a higher br than their irl counterparts.

This is stupid. Increasing the BR of a paper tank above where it actually should be for no other reason than it’s a paper tank is, again, the exact opposite of what War Thunder should be. We shouldn’t even need to artificially bump up the BR of a vehicle (which shouldn’t even be in the game in the first place) to incentivise people to not use them.

Not to mention that, by the way Gaijin tends to implement prototype vehicles, if the E-50 and E-75 were introduced, they would probably be a premium or event vehicle… so they wouldn’t even really fix any of Germany’s BR gaps, because Germany already has premiums in the BR the E-50 and E-75 would have to occupy, even if you were to uptier them like you said.

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I’m pretty sure that was on purpose with gaijin wanting to remove cold war stuff with heatfs and atgm from facing ww2 stuff, ofc their implementation of it is kinda questionable but there still isn’t much point in filling those gap, especially with paper tanks, the 90mm leo seems like a better fit since it mark that transition period.

Except ppls complain and complain about paper tanks and plane all the damn time, cough japan cough, it wouldn’t really make sense bringing them back, the tiger 2 10,5 cm is alr a paper design, replacing it with another paper tank doesn’t look right either. For the panther 2 tho, i would argue bringing it back but with proper turret and engine this time and make it exactly what it is, an unarmored panthers A, with the nvd just cuz its cool. Also are they even that common? I see one panther 2 for every 10 match and the tigers is even rarer.

Sorry for edit i fat fingered it

Of course, I’m okay with the decompression that took place, I’m just saying that you need to keep the unintended consequences in mind. US and USSR still have plenty in that bracket because they were building AFVs based on WW2 lessons until the Korean War. T-54s, T32s, later IS tanks, and so on.

Germany wasn’t doing that, which is why there can be no IRL replacement for the Panther II and the Tiger II 105.

That’s the subjective part. I would like it to be filled, but it’s not the end of the world it it isn’t. And so long as they’re balanced and fun to play, I have no issue with paper vehicles.

It would either be 7.3 like the Ru, and thus have no lineup, or be 7.7, and so not really filling any gaps.

If it’s 7.3, your tech tree lineup would be this, a Wiesel, and an uptiered Kugelblitz…

It would either be 7.3 like the Ru, and thus have no lineup, or be 7.7, and so not really filling any gaps.
If it’s 7.3, your tech tree lineup would be this, a Wiesel, and an uptiered Kugelblitz…

I think that’s completely worth it, to be honest. It fills the BR gap with at least one vehicle that isn’t too far away from the others in the tech tree, and would probably still perform fine in the slight uptiers it’d get. Not to mention it gives Gaijin a reason to focus on that 7.3 range so that they can find more vehicles to give it a lineup with.

Which is why Germany needed a subtree of some sort + I’m pretty sure this is more of a Gaijin never thinkt this through with the decompression they did or simply don’t care

Nor do i really, but imo paper tank/plane should only be added when there is literally nothing to be add, like japan. Would still prefer paper stuff over copy pasta tho.

Which would be great for a 7.7 lineup, fast tank with heatfs still do well at 8.0 and the Wiesel actually perform better there since late ww2 and Korea war heavies are pretty rare.

either way they would fill the gap, as there are several leos prototypes that would actually be 7.0 or 7,3, there are at least 4 different ones, the type 1a and b and the type 2 a and b, this is a much better solution than adding late war german paper vehicles, also there is the option of an Spähpanzer SP I.C or the spw 40 (9m14) .

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I think there’s a bit of a misunderstanding here btw. I’m not saying the prototypes should not be added. The more the merrier as far as I’m concerned, it looks fun and interesting, so by all means, go nuts. I’m just saying this exists in parallel with the blueprint discussion, not as a replacement to it.

I don’t think Germany needs a sub tree, especially because this particular gap is something where literally only the USA and USSR (and Britain to some degree) have a lot of options from real world history to begin with. It’s just a very localised gap.

I am sceptical any leo prototype would actually stay that low for long, even if you put it there.

But in any event, you’re still talking about fast, unarmoured flankers that are light vehicles either literally or functionally. There is no real world replacement you can add for the Panther II and Tiger II 105 unless you literally give the German tree DDR-service versions of the T-54 and a late IS.