there is no need of to replace the panther 2 and tiger 2 105 with a another tank similar to those, whats needed is to fill the br gap that was left from those, the solution for the removal of two fake tanks is not to add another two but using real tanks.
Like I said earlier in the thread, “need” is a subjective word here, since we’re talking about a major nation with an insanely powerful tech tree at almost every BR. Is it the end of the world if they’re not replaced? Nope. Would it be nice? I believe so. That’s pretty much all there is to that.
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the solution for the removal of two fake tanks is not to add another two but using real tanks.
Exactly. People forget that we have east germany, who locally built a lot of soviet designs and even some of their own silly little things. When we talk about germany, most people only think of west germany - but there is a lot more that can go to them from the east than just a T-72M, and some of these things will fit nicely in the BR gaps…
Not all of these things would be copy paste vehicles, either. Local modifications were common among the east germans, because industry - especially military industry - was incredibly politically important to them. To me, though, having them as a subtree is not the move to make - instead, east german vehicles should just be embedded into the existing tech tree… it’s not like you’re going to offend any east germans by doing this, after all. They’re ultimately two versions of the same country.
Oh it does, especially for air, german air tree are getting pretty close to it ends alr but that is a topic for another discussion, point is german ground could also benefits from this too especially with some Swiss, Austria, Czech, Dutch tanks. Not to mention all the DDR copy pasta stuff but who would want that?
but what this kind of people want are the ww2 German engineers sweet dreams, which many of those “designs” are vague and most of the time nothing more than sketch
They’ll grow up. I, too, wanted the sweet dreams of WW2 german engineers once upon a time, but nowadays I appreciate most cold war vehicles. I wanted the E-75 in War Thunder too when I first moved to it after completing world of tanks when I was young. I don’t have any doubts these people are the same.
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Every tank in WT is a sweet dream. I can push my Jagdtiger to 42km/h and the transmission doesn’t blow up. You can play an early T-34 without a cupola and pay no penalty in situational awareness. You can have no turret basket and still reload the turret at any rotation angle. Sturmtigers can reload the gun in 40 seconds, from inside the vehicle.
German tanks shouldn’t even be able to rotate the turret at full speed when they’re moving, because that draws from the same engine RPM…
I think you’re unfairly categorising me as a Wehraboo, and I’ll grant you, a lot of people want these vehicles because they’re Wehraboos. But I know enough about the real world vehicles to know that War Thunder is incredibly generous in its depiction of German vehicles, and it’s very, very far from reality.
But that distance from reality is also precisely why I don’t see any issue having blueprints in. It’s just a game. My Panther’s engine will not catch fire if a smoke grenade hits the engine deck… It’s just as fake as the Panther II, even if it’s made to look like something that was indeed built in metal.
So I’m very relaxed about realism, otherwise I wouldn’t be able to enjoy the vehicles we already have in the game. Therefore to me the questions with blueprints are very simple.
Are they balanced? Are they fun?
The removed German vehicles look pretty balanced and pretty fun. So I would like them to come back. If they don’t, it’s a shame, but the German tree will be amazing regardless. The end. 😌
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I agree with you, I am a big fan of the Italian P43 and P43 bis, and though both never made it to production (i believe the p43 got a prototype though), they would fill a good role in the domestic Italian tank line that ends with the P40 at 3.3. These vehicles have a use in offering something reflective of the Italian tank industry that were never built. Much of mid to late WW2 era vehicles we see in the Italian TT are just copy-paste, but were in fact used.
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Yeah, but last time I suggested it, I got flamed to hell and back for it.
With what motivation?
I don’t really know. It was a really long time ago.
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Well, technically, the Panther II is accurate, more or less.
The Panther II and the Panther 88 projects are often combined, incorrectly, when they are in fact, two separate projects
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By increasing br from irl counterparts i meant it as in the case od the 10.5cm tiger 2 where rather than being at 6.7 like the tiger2 its at 7.0. The E75 or E50 could be at 7.3 or 7.0. And we all know if one of those leopards are implemented at 8.3/8.7 ppl would complain to get its br raised. Other lesser known vehicles could definitely be added if they have vehicles that would fit in the br jumps. And they still have given vehicles ammunition they didn’t ever have at low brs
I would wish to see the E-75, but with the LWL-44 12.8CM variant, the gun already existed so it can be added to the game… just like the japanese Ho-RI. The 10.5CM probaly can’t be added due to the fact the gun never existed at all.
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I’m just going to quote Tank Archives to explain why the idea is simply not plausible.
To conclude, let’s talk about the armament. As mentioned above, the E-50 and E-75 would not receive any existing turret, but a new design. According to American intelligence, it was supposed to be developed by Krupp. Like the hull, the heavy and medium tank would have identical looking turrets with different armour thicknesses and armament. There is no additional information on what this turret would have looked like, all that is known is that it would have an electric traverse. The unified turret would have to be very large and have an enormous turret bustle. There were also some uncomfortable questions regarding the armament.
As experience showed, Krupp’s attempt to power up the Tiger II by installing a 105 mm gun failed. First of all, the mass of the turret grew by at least a ton. The placement of the armament was also a major concern. Even the 1900 mm turret ring and massive turret bustle did not allow for single piece ammunition. A second loader would have been needed, as the 105 mm round came in two pieces. A fourth person in the turret would have been too much, and so this idea was dropped.
The Germans simply ran out of guns. Fantasies like installation of the 128 mm gun are not even worth discussing.
I am not opposed to what-if designs, but they should be as grounded in real history as possible. For example, a Tiger II with a stabiliser is fictional, but also very grounded, since it was one of the planned upgrades for the tank had production continued. An E-75 with a 128mm would require the Germans to change their minds, give you the same gun as the Jagdtiger but with a slower rate of fire, and probably atrocious mobility. That’s not what the Germans were planning in 1945 and doesn’t sound like it would fill any gap in the lineups either. Imho.
I don’t know, but it would be nice to see an E-75 with 12.8cm even if it performance is so trash it would be an cool collector’s tank. Most historical documents of the E-75 are pretty much gone and unsure… They can be right or they can be wrong aswell. I get what you meant.
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So we replace the Gaijin fakes with paper tanks? No thanks.
No we don’t need E50 or E75, as much as I enjoyed the E50 with the 88 L/100 back in the day…
I think the important point to emphasise when it comes to the E-series is that even if we used the standards used in Naval, they still would not qualify for introduction into the game.
While we have a pretty good idea for the hulls (even if some of the elements as told by Kniepkamp/von Heydekamp/Adler contradict each other), no blueprint of the turret design survives, if indeed one was finalised. And we also have no idea what guns they were supposed to have.
It is important to keep in mind that the E-series concept was abandoned in 1944, and that German R&D faced increasing difficulties developing new guns basically 1943 onwards.
The path the Germans went with in the end was to focus (planned) 1945 production on existing designs while continuously improving them. Hetzer, Panther F, Tiger II, Jagdtiger, the end. They would get new touches, like better engines, rangefinders, possibly rigidly-mounted guns and stabilised gun sights, but the production focus was clearly on rationalisation and getting rid of the “zoo”.
If you’re thinking to yourself, “that’s a depressing lineup to pit against Centurions and T29s and T-54s”, the answer is yes, correct, it’s just a natural consequence of the fact that Germany had no fuel left in the tank (ha ha) at the time. There’s no plausible Wunderwaffe coming out from 1944-45 ideas. They were just trying to stave off the inevitable.
However…
I don’t think the tanks in your inventory should be changed, but I also really despise this attitude of wanting players to be split in haves and have nots.
I will never understand wanting to gatekeep things in games. I started playing WT in 2022. If someone starts off today, I want them to have access to the positive experiences I’ve also had access to. I want them to have fun and find joy in the game like I do. I truly cannot fathom the “it’s mine, you can’t have it!” mentality for a game like this one.
Why? I can easily find them in War Thunder.
My Tiger IIs can turn their turrets at maximum speed even while using all the engine’s RPM to drive forward. In reality this was physically impossible.
In any tank I play, I can take a massive jump and not break the suspension, and the loader can still load the shell at the same speed. This happens even on early tanks without turret baskets. In reality this was physically impossible.
Yak 9s are flying with a cannon that would cause serious mechanical stress to the frame after firing just a few rounds. Sturmtigers are reloading unaided in the field. Tanks without cupolas still see in third person view like every other tank. I could go on.
Realism in WT is selective. The Tiger II 105’s rangefinder is modelled in a physically impossible way in WT, but it’s no less absurd than any of the other features I have mentioned.
They were not removed for exclusivity purposes. Moreover if you really just wanted to reward loyalty, you could always make them available to players who regularly play the game for X amount of years, or whatever. Instead, “rules for thee and not for me”, as always.
I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. As the game expanded into post WW2, there was always going to be a gap where the USA, USSR, Britain and France have vehicles, and almost nobody else does, because between 1945 and 1952, most other countries represented in WT were, shall we say, otherwise preoccupied. So if you want to give Germany for instance competitive machines at those BRs, your options are very limited.
Gaijin believed incorrectly that the gap would be fixed by adding postwar Bundeswehr vehicles, but that’s still not the case. The M48 is no replacement for the Tiger II 105 and the Panther II, not for nothing it’s at 7.7 while the other vehicles are at 7.0. Here we are in 2025 and Germany has one of the biggest tech trees in the game, but the gap remains anyway - you have no real 7.0 lineup in the tech tree, nor 7.3, you have a smattering of 7.7 vehicles, and only at 8.0 do you resume “normal” service.
To fill this gap the only real options are prototypes/project vehicles or sub trees. We’ll see what happens.
No. It started as a plane game, but expansion was always planned. You can find 2012 interviews where the creators talk about ground and even naval already.
Nah, they’ve had (and still have) a hard time finding replacements because for Germany it was a luxury to have running water or electricity going between 1945 and the Korean War. They weren’t spending much time thinking about new tanks.
Only the hull was built, but yes. I’m sure it will eventually come to the game.
See what I mean? Realism is selective :P
That is not correct. There isn’t a single blueprint reflecting the Tiger II 105 we have in the game. When Gaijin created the vehicle, they simply decided to incorporate different potential Tiger II upgrades that were being evaluated separately in real history. These were:
- a 105mm gun
- a more powerful engine
- a rangefinder
Points 2 and 3 were being worked on in metal. However, point 1 was rejected while still at the blueprint stage, because of the slow rate of fire. The sketches showing the 105 gun are not detailed enough to include a rangefinder and a new engine, because they were specifically about the turret and gun. The 105 was abandoned long before progress on the rangefinder and the engine reached a substantive stage.
I agree.
I disagree. War Thunder is a product run by a company. It is not a question of luck - it is a deterministic environment with exactly one decision-maker.
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Damn, waddup young fella.
I agree, but I also see the value in rare and uncommon vehicles - to try collect and actually use. There’s a bunch of rare vehicles in this game that I would like newer players to have a chance at, but when you’ve got the market involved, it’s a bit of a tough spot for Gaijin. I think the SL loot boxes are as far as they’ll go most of the time.
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