I also don’t assume that there will be any more precise information than there is now in the next few years or decades.
This kind of information is of course secret (as long as nobody leaks it, you never know with this community).
Everything I could find in German and English is either already in the initial post or in the two posts I shared relatively early in this thread.
In these you can only find the explicit statements that MUSS 2.0 can work against IR guided atgms, that MUSS 1.0 can already jam SAL atgms, SACLOS atgms and rangefinders and that in the development of MUSS 2.0 by Hensoldt the possibility to dazzle beam riding missiles was mentioned.
I haven’t found anything else, except there is in an article by Janes, but it’s behind a paywall, so I can’t say what it says.
Every other source out there I habe found uses the rerm “atgms” when it comes to the capabiliyts of the new laser based jammer, without going into any deatil.
Now of course you can think about how logical or ulogical these options are, but at least I am far from being an expert in this field.
I can only summarise the following from the sources I can find and my own knowledge.
The ability to disrupt IR-guided atgms with MUSS 2.0 sounds the most plausible to me. After all, IR lasers are already used in the DIRCM of aeroplanes to jam IR-guided missiles.
As far as jamming SAL atgms and range finders is concerned, I have no idea how that would work with the jammer. I personally think the author of the source confused the effects if the jammer and the effects of the smoke launcher.
And as far as laser beam riding atgms are concerned, you could either superimpose the laser, which is difficult because the sensor is located on the missile at the rear.
Alternatively, you could dazzle the optics of the targeting device so that the shooter can no longer aim correctly, or even destroy them completely, although I don’t know how much this would affect the accuracy, because it’s not clear to me whether the laser would then remain correctly on the target. Especially if the system is fast enough, you can even dazzle it before the atgm has even been fired, because the laser is activated a short time before the shot.
yeah this is exactly what i was thinking, it is totally plausible they might be already included capacity to counter these missiles but is not fully disclosed if wether it has been put into it or not since they dont specificate
@_KR_Paul Gotta explain sth to you, since you seem to spread this mistake everywhere.
Puma S1 = Puma VJTF , those are the same Puma Variant, the VJTF is just the name of the company it is stationed at.
The Puma S1 does not have the MUSS 2.0 You yourself shared a picture of the MUSS 2.0 device
You will find no active in service Puma with the MUSS 2.0 device since it is still in development.
The only Puma equipped with the MUSS 2.0 is this Prototype, which was shown of this year in the Eurosatory 2024, the Puma S1 is already a good bit older.
There is no specific name yet for this Puma variant that is why OP decided to name it Puma S1 (2024) variant. But depending on it, it might be more accurate to already call it Puma S2.
If you should disagree with my statements , i invite you to show me any picture of a Puma with Muss 2.0 which isnt from the Eurosatory.
And please dont confuse the training devices with the Muss 2.0
oh didnt want to call you out, just explain the choice of your naming. For all that matter Puma S2 is as wrong as Puma S1 (2024) right now. The most accurate would be Puma Eurosatory 2024 Demonstrator, leaving the S completly out of it. Since until S2 still a lot could change as well
You’re partly right, but so am I.
First of all, no, the Puma S1 is not the same as the Puma VJTF. Regardless of whether it concerns the Puma upgraded from S0 to S1 or the 50 newly built ones.
All Puma on S1 have at least newer versions of board radio, radio and GPS system.
The 50 newly procured Puma S1s will come from the factory with MUSS 2.0 and new engines, but these will be depreciation-compatible so that the first 350 Puma can possibly be retrofitted with them later. They may also have new seats to accommodate soldiers who are taller than 1.84 metres, but this has yet to be approved by the procurement authority. All in all, by the way, this is exactly the status shown at Eurosatory 2024 and corresponds to the S1 status of the 50 newly procured vehicles.
But the 297 Puma S0s that will be upgraded to the Puma S1 version will not initially receive MUSS 2.0. Instead, they will gradually receive it after the retrofit, with worn systems being replaced first. The TSWA will also only be procured as soon as it is ready for series production. But both the VJTF and the S1 Puma already have a mounting point where they can simply be screwed on.
So the confusion comes from the fact that the newly ordered Puma S1 have the same configuration name, but not the same configuration at the beginning. This only changes gradually over time when MUSS 2.0 is retrofitted onto the “old” Puma S1.
But despite these differences, both are the S1 configuration and the fact that the first 297 S1 Puma MUSS 2.0 (and the TSWA) are also gradually being fitted with scaffolding emphasises once again that the Eurosatory variant is the final form of S1.
S2, which you mentioned, will probably contain the following improvements, at least according to PSM representatives.
Drone defence kit
Integration of a reconnaissance drone
Acoustic detection systems like the one I mentioned in my earlier post
Integration of Spike LR2 as an upgrade to Spike LR1 → larger launcher required
Integration of sensor and possibly AI-supported assistance systems
Drone defence kit and maybe the new launche, although in the articel where this is from, they say it is a launcher that was specially developed for the Boxer RCT30.
In May 2023, PSM was commissioned with the production and delivery of an initial 50 Puma in the S1 design version
The vehicles in the second batch will have largely the same technical standard as those upgraded to S1. However, due to obsolescence rationalisation and advanced technologies, two key components will be completely renewed: the engine and the multifunctional self-protection system (MUSS)
“PSM shows air-deployable Puma S1 infantry fighting vehicle and further development potential” not declaring it is the PUMA S1 but a further developement
this source its regarding the S1 modernization package and they even talk of another batch of PUMA S1 in another post Retrofitted Puma S1 will come later
this one its already been known before and we even called the training system on top a “piss drawer” its just a training package for the PUMA not a modernization idk why u bringing this one here
this has been talked before too about its addition to the german army and again dosent bring anything about MUSS 2.0 nor anything that proves that the PUMA S1 is the one in the eurosatory wich the one in the eurosatory its just a demonstrator for future capacities like it said in one of the sources you posted
basically there is orders of the PUMA S1 that has been ongoing since some years ago and they have been succesfully delivered, the fact that even the bundeswehr acknowledges this as the PUMA S1 proves that the VJTF its in fact the PUMA S1 https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/heer/aktuelles/neuer-puma-revier-5820268
here is the difference
First of all, have you even read the sources?
Because if you had, you would have seen that the Puma of the 2nd batch are explicitly referred to as Puma S1 in the article that also deals with the difference of this, I would call it the final S1 configuration, and which dates from this year, aslo is more up-to-date than any other I have seen.
So again, according to the sources I have given here, it is not correct, both the Puma that is upgraded from S0 and is almost identical to the VJTF and the newly built Puma with MUSS 2.0 and new engine will be called S1, whereby the former will then adapt to this second status by gradually replacing the APS. But this does not change the name, because this provisional final state will still be called S1.
So here are the two quotes just for you:
In May 2023, PSM was commissioned with the production and delivery of an initial 50 Pumain the S1 design version
The vehicles in the second batch will have largely the same technical standard as those upgraded to S1. However, due to obsolescence rationalisation and advanced technologies, two key components will be completely renewed: the engine and the multifunctional self-protection system (MUSS)
And yes, the Puma VJTF corresponds in game to the Puma S1 status of the Puma which are improved from S0 to S1, but not yet has MUSS 2.0. But still in reality they remain different and if Gaijin adds the Puma S1 then I would expect that to happen in the final version to avoid this confusion between the different intermediate states.
As for the existence of MUSS 2.0, I’d like to know where you got the info that it doesn’t exist.
It was shown at Eurosatory and Hensoldt has official product information on it, not just articles, and they are supposed to be scaffolded soon (Bundeswehr soon, so in the next few years). Especially if we stay in the in-game context, that doesn’t matter anyway, because the functional prototype definitely has to exist and afaik that’s enough to be added to the game.
Of course, it is possible that a decision will be made to rename the configuration in the future, but according to current sources this is not the case and the Eurosatory version corresponds to the S1 configuration.
If you have more up-to-date sources that prove the opposite, then I am always open to being improved.
Until then, please read my sources before you answer me again :/
On the first point, take a look at the first link and if there is a paywall in your way, then look at the bottom of the picture or if you don’t speak German, then read through the two most important quotes. Then you will see that the 50 new Puma were indeed labelled as S1 and the article also comes from the same source as yours on the S1 configuration, but is more up to date.
I included Agdus because the guy I answered primarly asked for it, as I wrote below the picture.
The picture of the Boxer RCT30 refers more to what will most likely be included in the real S2 package. Or more precisely, the new drone defence package and possibly the new MELLS launcher for Spike LR2, even if the article only mentions that it has been specially developed for the Boxer RCT30.
Yes, there is a first batch of S1s that should already be in delivery, but even with these, MUSS 2.0 and the TSWA will be successively scaffolded after the upgrade. VJTF and S1 already have mounting points for the latter. But this will not change the configuration, because the newly ordered 50 Puma will be ordered in S1 but will already have these changes and a new engine from the outset.
In your sources the version of the newly ordered one is simply not specified, but in mine it is and that as S1. So if you have no source that explicitly contradicts this, then it is logical to assume that the Eurosatory version is the final draft of the S1 for the moment and everything else is intermediate steps.
Of course, if you have something that contradicts this or if something changes in the future, I and most likely the creator of this thread are willing to change it, but from what I’ve seen so far, the Eurosatory version is just as much the S1 setup as what you call S1
its possible that the new launcher will be adopted not only in the boxer RCT30 but the next generation of PUMA rn the current PUMA in service with the german army is the PUMA S1, rn the army plans on upgrading the PUMA with further modifications wich would probably end up in the S2, but rn the S1 its the one in service and currently i’d rather call this the PUMA S1(2024)
Rn 50 Puma S1 are beeing built that will look exactly like the Eurosatory Puma.
Rn there are three versions the Bundeswher uses, mainly S0 and VJTF, because the upgrade S0s to S1 is still going on.
Rn we know thanks to the sources, that the final S1 configuration was first shown 2024, thats why the name fits perfectly fine, although in game it will be just the Puma S1.
The future plans have nothing to do with the upgrades mentioned here, because the integration of MUSS 2.0 is already part of the S1 standard.
And yes, the new launcher can theoretically also become part of future upgrades of the Puma, because Spike LR2 has already been procured and will gradually replace LR1. But the article states that:
KNDS Germany had presented a MELLS launcher variant specially developed for the PuBo at the Eurosatory 2022 defence trade fair
and I wanted to make that clear in my article so that nobody gets false hopes and because I like to stay close to the sources that are available to me. Especially because, unfortunately, many people don’t even read them, even though they are listed :/
End of the day while all your explanations are iffy at best.
And me saying Muss 2 0 , doesnt exist yet is true because its still in development and not officialy deployed.
Your so called Puma S1 configuration doesnt exist yet.
As of right now Puma S1 and VJTF are essentialy the same for all purposes in war thunder.
Your demands are wrong and you claimed stuff for war thunder that simply wasnt true.
Because fact is Muss 2.0 does not exist yet in service. Together with a bunch of other stuff.
WarThunder dosen’t require a vehicle to be in service with the respected military forces.
The Puma S1 at Eurosatory 2024 is afaik completely sufficient to be inserted into the game. It had all the components installed, which therefore also exist, even if not yet in service with the Bundeswehr. In the course of Eurosatory, Hensoldt has already adapted the official MUSS product website to 2.0 and there is already a plan to gradually upgrade MUSS 2.0. Both of these are clear indications to me that MUSS 2.0 is indeed fully developed, although there is not explicit statement that it is afaik. The TSWA is not yet ready for series production, but the prototype exists here too, which should also be enough for WT. And afaik know, there was also only a prototype of the 2S38 and it was added to the game anyway. As well as the Kikka from the japanese tree, that also only had a prototype.
As for my explenation, it is backed up with sources and since you seem to have no source to the contrary at the moment, it is not only iff, but correct (as of today).
Around 20 or so were under construction by the time war ended, with parts for approximately an additional 70 available in another plant. The second to fifth examples were close to completion, just missing installation of landing gear.
Yes, you’re right.
But the source also states that there was only one functional prototype, which was then used for the test flight.
Although the Kikka Kai was only completed as a single prototype,
The rest, as you said, was not yet fully assembled.
So the situation is similar to that with the Puma S1 from Eurosatory.
You have one that was shown at the trade fair and will most likely also be used for tests by the manufacturer and another 50 that are currently being built. Of course, the Kikka was already further along, because all the parts for the 70 have already been produced, but the similarity is still there.
war thunder requires it to be functional at least.
We do not know if the Puma S1 Eurosatory was a Mock UP. Same reason the chally 3 prototype throphy was declined.
As of right now there is no prove for a functional Puma S1 with Muss 2.0, get that in your head.
Your whole demand for a Puma S1 with muss 2.0 i criticised was wrong and not possible.
functional prototype yeah. thats more then a mock up.
Not mentioning development time genius, the Puma S1 Eurosatory is only a few months old.
The vehicles begin development earlier, it was not vjtf or s1 in the first place. because at the start of the project the eurosatory vehicle didnt even exist yet.
